蛤絲百科:蛤三篇

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蛤三篇是網絡上三段與江澤民有關的視頻，被廣泛用於模仿惡搞。

1998年CBS記者邁克·華萊士訪談

1998年，美國CBS記者邁克·華萊士所在的哥倫比亞廣播公司《60分鐘》欄目，通過公關公司向中國駐紐約總領事館遞交了採訪中國國家主席江澤民的申請。但由於1998年洪災以及1999年科索沃戰爭的影響。直到2000年8月15日，江澤民才最終在北戴河正式接受專訪，並製成節目《60分鐘》。^[1]^[2]^[3]

1998年CBS記者麥克·華萊士訪談

註：此次訪談歷時近4個小時，江澤民有時說漢語有時說英語。以下語錄內容將以「中文翻譯-英文」的形式記錄。由於各種版本視頻中的提問順序和刪減程度不一致，此處英文部分主要參照美國播出的原版視頻。其中英文斜體部分原話為中文，原版視頻播出時被英語旁白掩蓋，而該旁白是中方提交的，江澤民的原話難以辨識，故往往是對英語旁白的直接翻譯，並不一定符合最初實際的情況。

中文翻譯		英文
江澤民：	時光荏苒。	Jiang:	Time flies very fast.
華萊士：	是啊。	Wallace:	Yeah.
江：	與君初會，在昔八六。	J:	We met for the first time in 1986.
華：	你和我麼？	W:	You and I?
江：	乃寡人適任兩江總督之時也。	J:	That’s right. When I was mayor of Shanghai.
華：	沒錯。我記得是在一個露天的房間裏。	W:	That’s right. It was a room out of doors…
江：	誠為戶外，居於黃浦江之上。	J:	Out of doors, near the Huangpu River.
華：	沒錯。	W:	Exactly.
江：	今日與君重逢，實乃幸之甚矣。	J:	And…I’m very happy to meet you again today.
華：	我也很高興見到您，非常感謝您努力促成了此次採訪。	W:	And you, I thank you very much for granting this interview.
江：	朕欲假子之節目致君等美夷，廣播吾天朝懷柔之美意。	J:	I hope to convey through your program my best wishes to American people, and you.
華：	也包括您的老朋友克林頓總統？還有您的新朋友喬治·布什？	W:	And your friend President Clinton? And your friend George Bush?
江：	善哉！花旗國人無所不包，此乃花旗之友，朕交甚廣之故也。	J:	That’s right. Of course, including everybody, because, I have many, many friends in America.
華：	我明白了。	W:	I understand.
江：	眾高朋也！	J:	All friends!
華：	我明白了。	W:	I understand.
華：	啊，主席先生。您在一把手位置上坐了得有十幾年了吧。在當時被廣泛認為是個過渡性的角色。大家都覺得您不會真正成為一把手，你只會花費幾年時間之力這個國家，然後一些更加果斷、更加強硬的人就會頂替您的位置。但是您擊敗了哪些懷疑者，執掌政權至今。您覺得是什麼原因使您被小看了呢？	W:	Ah, you know Mr. President. You took over a little more than 10 years ago, right? Widely perceived to be a transitional figure. You were not going to be no.1, you were going to spend a few years, running the country, and then somebody more decisive and somebody stronger and therefore who’s going to take you over. But you confounded the sceptics. You took charge and you still very much in charge. Why do you believe that perhaps you were underestimated?
江：	古今中外大多數政治家都是逐步走向高層的。我曾任上海市長，接着又兼任了上海市委書記。事實上，我根本沒想過自己會被調到北京的中央委員會工作，但最終我還是被選中了。鄧小平和其他老一輩的領導集體希望我成為中國共產黨的總書記，我實在是沒有料到。然而畢竟我已經在這個位置上坐了11年了，我堅定不移的信仰一直告訴我必須盡最大的努力去為我的祖國服務。或許是因為我刻苦勤奮，所以我現在還能坐穩這個位子。	J:	Many statesmen in the world had moved up gradually, I was the mayor, and then the Party Secretary in Shanghai. In fact, I did not think I would be transferred to the Central Committee here in Beijing. But finally I was the man who selected. Deng Xiaoping and other leaders of the old generation want me to become General Secretary of Communist Party. I did not expect this. However I’ve been in this position for 11 years, and I always held the conviction that I need to do my very best to serve my country and my motherland. And may be it is because my hard work and my diligence that I still have the job.
華：	短一點，美國的規矩你懂的，請更精簡一點。	W:	The, the shorter answers, you know the United States, shorter answers, please. More concise.
江：	我的回答明明跟你提問的長度差不多啊。	J:	But I think my answer is roughly the same length as your question.
華：	我知道，您說得沒錯。	W:	I know it, that’s absolutely ture.
江：	如果你的問題也能精簡一點的話，我的回答也會精簡一點的。	J:	If you give concise and brief questions, I’ll give you brief answers.
華：	我聽說您被形容為「綿里藏針」，這會不會是您成功的另外一個原因呢？這個成語又是什麼意思呢？	W:	You are called, I sound, 「the silk wrapped needle」, is that one question for your success? And what does it mean?
江：	人們也用這個成語來形容鄧小平的性格。我不敢和他相比。但是我可以講一句，我這個人的性格還是比較果斷的，這是肯定的。	J:	People use the same phrase to describe the character of Deng Xiaoping, I don’t think I should be put on the power of Deng. But one thing of myself is that, fore sure is that I’m a decisive fighre.
華：	不過這也意味着，您是強硬派，像一支針。	W:	But That also would seem to mean, you are a tough fighre. A needle.
江：	事實上，「綿里藏針」在中文裏是個很高的評價，所以我還是覺得我應該謙虛一點比較好。	J:	In fact, 「a needle wrapped in silk」 is a very high compliment in Chinese, so I think I should be more modest.
華：	請用幾句話來描述一下當今的中美關係，主席先生？	W:	Outside we’ve talk about relations about the United States and China. In a few words, how would you characterize the state of relations between China and the United States today, Mr President?
江：	我認為中美關係關係總體來說是好的，但我也會用人們形容天氣的話來形容中美關係：我們之間的關係經歷了風風雨雨有時多雲，有時甚至烏雲密佈。但是，有時也會雨過天晴。大家都有一種良好的願望使得我們兩國的關係向一種建設性的戰略夥伴關係前進。	J:	On the whole, the relations between China and the United States are good. However, I would like to use words people used to describe nature to describe the state of China-US relations. Our relations have experienced wind, rain and sometimes cloud or even dark clouds or even dark clouds. However sometimes it clears up. We all sincerely hope to build a constructive partnership between China and the United States.
華：	您剛才的辭令政客腔十足，毫無誠意可言。最近你們的一份官方報紙《中國日報》將美國稱為「世界和平的威脅」。您也這麼認為，認為美國對世界和平構成威脅了嗎？	W:	That’s spoken like a real politician. There’s no candor in it. In a recent headline in your government or one of your government newspapers China Daily, the paper called the US 「a threat to world peace」. You feel that way that the United States is a threat to world peace?
江：	我覺得「政客」這個詞不怎麼好聽。	J:	I don’t think 「politician」 is a very nice word.
華：	不，這不是溢美之詞，這，在這裏這只是個婉轉說法。	W:	No, it’s not a nice word, it’s,it’s a, it’s a diplomatic word in this case.
江：	「政治家」怎麼樣？	J:	「Stateman」?
華：	換言之，您到底認不認為美國對世界和平造成威脅？如果是的話，那我們在哪些方面威脅了世界和平？這是防長威廉·科漢訪華時的報道。	W:	In other words, look, either you believe that United States is a threat to world peace, or you do not? Which is that? And if so, in what way are we threat to world peace? That was the headline when Defense Secretary William Cohen came here to China.
江：	應該這麼說…..我在美國有很多的朋友，民主黨和共和黨都有不少。每次與他們會晤的時候，我們都帶着極大的誠意與友好來深入交換意見。所以坦白說，或許是因為美國享有強大的經濟和科技力量，使得它不由自主地高估自身實力以及它在世界上的地位。今天我想向美國人民傳達一個友好的信息，但我還是想說，在美國的領導觀念之中還是盛行着一種霸權主義之風。	J:	I have a lot of friends in the United States, both Democrats and Republicans. And every time I have meeting with them, we exchange views and great candor and great frankness. So candidly speaking, maybe it is because of the strong economic power and leading edge in science and technology that the United States enjoys, that more often than not it tends to overestimate itself and its position in the world. Today I want to convey a friendly message to the American people. But I do want to say there may be a certain touch of hegemonism in the leadership of the United States.
華：	那份報紙好像還說美國「窮兵黷武」，這是它說的，「窮兵黷武」。	W:	That seem newspaper said that United States is 「power man」, I quote, 「power man」.
江：	我今天與你交談，我很希望給美國人民一個信息，促進我們中美兩國人民相互之間的友誼與了解。所以，如果可以的話，我不喜歡用太多的很嚴厲的字眼來進行交談。剛才我講得很清楚，你們經濟那麼發達，你們的科學技術力量那麼發達，所以你們有一種比較高的優勢地位，往往表現的態度可能不能夠對其他的所有的國家採取一種非常平等的地位。	J:	Well, as I said to you earlier, I hope that our talk today, I would be able to convey a message of friendship and mutual understanding between the Chinese and the American people. So if you permit, I would like to refrain from using too much tough words in our conversation. I think that I’ve made myself very clear, when I said the United states enjoyed a developed economy, and also a leading edge in science and technology. This has put you in a rather advantage position. And very often makes you feel more equal than the rest of the world.
華：	您的意思是我們看不起中國？我們在亞洲太突出了嗎？	W:	You mean we look down on China? We are too prominent in Asia?
江：	我也不是單單說你們單純的針對中國，中國是一個有五千年歷史文化的國家，而且我們有12億多人口，中國已經通過這20多年的改革開放，有了相當的經濟基礎，所以恐怕你們還不太敢小看中國。	J:	Well, I’m not talking about the United States』 attitude towards China in particular. China is a country with 5,000 years of history, and also more than 1,200,000,000 people. We have accumulated a significant economic foundation over the past 20 years of the reform and opening-up. So I’m afraid the United States simply cannot afford to look down on China.
華：	我明白了。請允許我問一句，您年輕時學英語的時候，是不是學習過托馬斯·傑斐遜和亞伯拉罕·林肯的演說？	W:	Understood. Let me, if I may, you studied the speeches of Thomas Jefferson and Abraham Lincoln as a youngster when you were learning English?
江：	也不是很小的時候，其實是我中學時學的。後來我在上海的夜校做老師時，我曾經選過林肯的葛底斯堡演說這門課。你可能會希望我引用演說中的一些片段。	J:	In fact I was in middle school. And later, when I was a teacher in the night school in Shanghai, I also selected Lincoln’s Gettysburg Address as a part of my course. And you maybe want me to quote some lines from that speech.
華：	我很期待。	W:	I do indeed.
江：	「先人立國已逾八十有七載。立國以自由，眾生平等乃國本也。」	J:	「Four score and seven years ago, our fathers brought forth on this continent a new nation, conceived in liberty and dedicated to the proposition that all men are created equal.」
華：	為什麼，為什麼你熟背這一段？	W:	Why, why did you learn that by heart?
江：	我就說我對「眾生平等」這句話很感興趣，因為這句話在我年輕上中學的時候，對一些學生有過很深的影響。而且我認為演說中亞拉伯罕林肯所描述的理想仍然是現今美國領導人所努力的目標。特別是最後一段：「民有、民治、民享之政必永續於世。」	J:	I’m particularly interested in the phrase, 「all men are created equal「. Because this has a great influence on some of students when I was young in the middle school. And I think what Abraham Lincoln described in the article still remains the goal of American leaders today. Especially the last paragraph: 「The government of the people, by the people and of the people, never perish from the earth.」
華：	亞伯拉罕·林肯是由人民選出來的，不是嗎？	W:	And Abraham Lincoln was elected by the people, correct?
江：	對啊。	J:	That’s right.
華：	那為什麼美國人民能自己選舉出他們的國家領導人，而你們顯然不相信中國人民有能力選出你們自己的國家領導人，為什麼？	W:	Why is that Americans can elect their national leaders, but you apparently don’t trust the Chinese people to elect your national leaders? Why?
江：	我想告訴你，我相信我也是被選出來的領導人，儘管我們的選舉制度不同。中美在這個問題上唯一的不同就是我們採用了不同的選舉制度，因為我們有自己的歷史傳統、文化水平、經濟發展水平和社會發展水平等等，所以我認為每個國家的選舉制度要根據它自己的情況確定。	J:	I want to tell you that I also believe that I’m an elected leader, although we use different ways of election. The only difference between China and the United States on this specific question is the different system of election we use in our two countries, because China has its own historical tradition, its own level of education and economic development and social development and so on. So I think each country should have its own individual system of election.
華：	那是自然，但我還是不明白，為什麼你們要搞一黨專政？如果中國有兩個或者三個黨會怎樣，到底會怎樣？或者這樣是否可行，像美國一樣，讓幾個黨相互競爭，以代表大多數國民，來讓國家更加美好？	W:	Of course. But I don’t understand still why you have a one-party state. What would happen, what would happen in China, if there were 2 or 3 parties? Isn’t it conceivable, as the United States, the competition between the parties to represent the majority of the people in their country make for a better country?
江：	因為我就是說有反對黨又有什麼用呢？這說明你沒有很好地讀中國的歷史。美國總認為整個世界都應該按照美國這種政治制度去行事，這是非常不夠明智的。	J:	Why is there necessary to have opposition parties? It shows you don’t understand Chinese history. America thinks the whole world should adopt American values and American political system, I don’t think that is wise.
華：	這可不只是美國，英國如此，德國法國也如此……我想說的是全世界都採用了這種制度。你已經是世界上最後一位大獨裁者，世界上最後一個共產黨大獨裁政權了。	W:	It’s not the American, it is the British, it is the Germen, it is the French, it is… I mean it’s all over the world. You are the last major dictatorship, the last major Communist dictatorship in the world.
江：	你說我是獨裁者？	J:	You mean I’m dictatorship?
華：	沒錯，你們一種發展中的獨裁，我們是這麼看的，難道我說錯了嗎？	W:	Well, of course, a developmental dictatorship is what, is what we believe it is. Am I wrong?
江：	當然錯了，錯得很離譜。	J:	Of course. This is a big mistake.
華：	錯得很離譜？	W:	Big mistake?
江：	當然了，看來你還沒有看透中國的本質。	J:	Of course. It shows you do not know China that well.
華：	噢，我確實不了解中國。我在這沒待多久。	W:	Oh, I don’t know China that well, I’ve been here, haven’t dozens of times.
江：	我想問你一個問題，你說的獨裁是什麼意思？	J:	Would you please tell me what means dictatorship?
華：	獨裁？當你們限制新聞自由的時候就是了。在這裏根本沒有新聞自由，完全看不到。	W:	Dictatorship? When you don’t have the freedom of the press, and there’s no freedom of the press here, there’s not. That’s a perfect example.
江：	你的意思是在中國，沒有新聞自由。	J:	You mean in China, there’s not.
華：	對，在中國這裏。我們明白公民自由與新聞自由之間的關聯，您曾經講過新聞應該是黨的喉舌，您又說過，和毛澤東一樣，說要堅持政治家辦報。你們為什麼這麼怕新聞自由？	W:	Here, here, in China, yes. We see a connection between freedom of the people, and freedom of the press. You’ve said the press should be the mouthpiece of the party. You’ve also said, as Mao Tsetung did, newspaper must be run by politicians. What do you fear from free press?
江：	我想不管哪個國家哪個黨派，都應該擁有它自己的新聞機構宣傳它們的主張。正如我前面所說的，中國的政治制度是由中國共產黨領導的多黨合作制度。而且我們確實擁有新聞自由。我們所有的全國的各種電視台大概有兩千多家，而且地方報紙有兩千多種、我們的雜誌有八千多種、我們每年也會出版超過十萬多種新書。即使是毛澤東，他當年也主張過文藝工作要「百花齊放，百家爭鳴」。	J:	I think for every individual country or any individual party, they always have their own publications to promote their own ideology. As I explain to you, the Chinese system is multi-party system led by the Communist Party. And we do have the freedom of the press. We have over 2,000 TV stations in the country. We have more than 2,000 local newspapers and more than 8,000 magazines. We publish more than 100,000 new books each year. Even Mao tsetung advocated the policy of allowing 「one hundred different flowers to bloom, and one hundred different sores of schools of thought」 contend in the field of art literature.
華：	百花齊放？	W:	Let a hundred flowers bloom?
江：	對啊。	J:	That’s right.
華：	想想就很可怕。	W:	And that was a disaster.
江：	當然，但是這個方針是正確的。直到今天我們還是推行這個方針的。	J:	But the direction was right, even today, we still pursue the same direction.
華：	嗯，四年前，主席您去了《人民日報》報社，算是真正的報社了，您對他們說過，即使是一篇文章，哪怕一句話講錯了都可能會導致政局不穩。新聞什麼時候變得這麼厲害了？似乎你們的一黨專政制度面對新聞自由會變得岌岌可危。	W:	Well, look, 4 years ago, president. You went to People’s Daily, which is the real paper there,and you said the following, you said, just one article, one erroneous remark or one mistake of the press may lead to political instability. Is the press that powerful? That makes, that makes you one-party rule seem remarkably precarious.
江：	四年前我去過人民日報社參觀這點你說的沒錯，但是好像我的原話並不一定是這樣講的。我只是說明這麼一個問題，就是這麼大一個國家，我們有12億多人，新聞的對國家的導向確實是很重要的。你不能用美國的價值觀來對中國的現狀做評判，因為你們在經濟、國民教育水平上高度發達，你更不能把美國模式強加於中國。不管中國媒體還是外國媒體，我都認為有一點很重要，那就是不能歪曲事實，即便他們自己由發表言論的自由。這對中國媒體很重要，特別是我們的《人民日報》，我們的老百姓非常重視。如果它把某一個事實報道錯誤了，人們會信以為真。我們不像你們那兒，你們想報道什麼就報道什麼，就算你們的報道出了什麼錯也無所謂，不會有很嚴重的後果。比方說，我現在正在北戴河這兒跟你交談，但是我已經看到了一些外國報紙說我已經到了大連了。如果是真的話，那我現在怎麼可能坐在這裏跟你聊天？我再告訴你另一件事。幾個月前，我看到一則消息說「江澤民訪問廈門，突遭炸彈爆炸重傷送院」，但那時候我還在北京。	J:	You were right in saying that I did make a visit in people’s daily back 4 years ago, but I’m afraid I never put things that way. So there may be a certain distortion about what I really said. What I want to explain to you is that we are such a big country with the population of over 1,200,000,000, that direction on media tries to lead our country toward is important. You cannot possibly try to use the American values to make judgements about China, because you are highly developed in you economy, and your level of education. You cannot possibly try to make China to same as the United States. I think for both Chinese media and the foreign media, one thing is very important. They should never distort the fact, though they are free to their on opinion. This is very important for the Chinese media, particularly the People’s Daily, because it is the major newspaper for the Chinese people. If there’s a mistake in the newspaper, people will believe what they read. The situation is different from yours, you can report ant any story anyway you want. Even if you make mistakes in your newspaper, it won’t make serious consequences. For example, I’m here right now, talking to you, in Beidaihe. I’ve read some foreign papers that say I’m in Dalian right now. If there reports were ture, how could I possibly be sitting here talking to you? And I will tell you another thing. A few month ago, I read a piece of news from the Internet saying, that was Jiang Zemin was visiting the army in Xiamen, there was a very serious explosion, and Jiang Zemin was severely hurt in hospital rest, However, at that time, I was in Beijing.
華：	嗯，您說的肯定沒錯，我們還有你們的媒體都犯過錯什麼的。不過，既然我們談到了獨裁，啊，我現在居然居然指着堂堂中國國家主席，我希望你不要把我分配到……	W:	Look, you’re absolutely right. There’re mistakes made in your press, in our press and so forth. But when we talk about dictatorship, I’m, I’m riding my finger at the President of China. I hope you’ll not send me off to… urr…
江：	你們和我們的媒體都犯過錯，不過我們的影響更大。	J:	Your press and our press both made mistakes, but the influence is greater.
華：	啊，我們只有2.5億人口，只不過是中國的五分之一。我也努力理解您肩負着13億人的民生大計，或者說世界上五分之一人的命脈，那很不得了。您，您難道從來沒有私下對自己說過，說，江澤民，我統治者站地球總人口五分之一，這麼大一個國家。	W:	Well, we are a quarter of billion, only about one-fifth the population of China. And I want to get to the business about you’re running the lives of 1,300,000,000 people, one out of every five people on earth. That’s astonished. Do you, do you never say to yourself at home, you’ll say Jiang Zemin, I, I am the chief of one out of every five people on earth.
江：	我們就來談談中國的人口問題。我們大概每一天有5萬多新的嬰兒出生，一年近2000萬人，而且這是在嚴格的計劃生育的條件下還有這麼大的增長率。所以正如你所說，我確實經常考慮怎麼使得我們12億多人生活得幸福，水平不斷地提高，很難吶。	J:	Let me say about the Chinese population. Everyday 52.000 babies are born in our country. This will add up to 20,000,000 a year. And this significant growth of our population has been seen under very strict family planning policy. So I often ask myself, how to ensure a happy life in constantly improve living standards for the 1,200,000,000 Chinese people. This is indeed, a very tough job.
華：	在談話一開始，在你們中國人習慣稱作「房間」的地方，鄧小平對您講過，「我希望你成為下一任領導班子的核心，我希望你成為大當家」，您當時只是很前輩謹慎地說：「我覺得如履薄冰」，很明顯您並不是在害怕，但您當時肯定已經有所準備，是在考慮自己是否做好了挑起這副擔子的準備？	W:	At the very beginning of your, room if you want to call it they way, here in China, when Deng Xiaoping said to you, 「I want you to be at the core, I want you to be the man who leads」. You are quotative heavily said, 「I feel as low I am on thin ice」, not that you were afraid, but surly you must have ready, you were ready, you were ready to take on your responsibility.
江：	今天我可以給你坦率地講，我從上海市委書記，上海的No.1，到北京來的，我絲毫沒有這個準備來當全中國的領導人，我是希望能夠考慮比我更能幹更合適的人。最後，我們的鄧小平等老一輩的領導人認為我是合適的，同時我是經過中央委員會的正式選舉產生的。最後，我只能是「鞠躬盡瘁，死而後已」了。	J:	Let me be very frank with you, before coming to Beijing, I was the No.1 in Shanghai, the Party Secretary. I had no intention of leading the whole country here, and I hope that more capable candidate will take the job. But Deng Xiaoping and other leaders from the old generation believe I was the appropriate candidate. So I was selected to be the General Secretary of the Communist Party. Now I can only 「devote myself to do anything I can to serve the country and my people until the last minute of my life」.
華：	那是自然，不過，不過……您從來沒在中國軍隊例服過兵役吧？說對了。那可是您重要的職責之一，您是國家軍委主席。	W:	Of course, but, but, you’ve never served in the army forces of China, right? Correct. One of the most important parts of your job, you are the chairman of the state commission of military, right?
江：	中央軍委。	J:	Military committee.
華：	中央軍委？讓一個從來沒服過兵役的人當領導，像比爾·克林頓一樣？您對軍隊非常苛刻，不是嗎？	W:	Military committee? A man who’s never served in the army forces, like Bill Clinton. You have been tough on the army, Haven’t you?
江：	正如你說的，我確實沒在軍隊裏服過役，因為我是一名知識分子。	J:	You were right. I’ve never served in the army in the military because I am an intellectual.
華：	在美國，知識分子也要服兵役的，總統先生。	W:	In the United States, an intellectual serves in the army, Mr. President.
江：	是的，你說的沒錯，現在為止我已經做了將近11年的中央軍委主席了。我自認為對軍隊有着十足的把握。作為主席，我用不着親自去打槍或者開飛機，我的職責是做好戰略決策。	J:	That’s ture. I haven’t said that though. I have served as chairman of the central military commission for 11 years. I think I have the confidence of the army. As chairman, I don’t personally need to fire a gun or fly a airplane. My responsibility is to make strategic decisions.
華：	不過您做了一個相當重要的決定。軍隊以前是可以經商的。	W:	But you’ve made a very serious decision. The army, the army forces used to be in business.
江：	噢，這是我做的決定。	J:	Oh, this is my decision.
華：	我知道，這是兩年前的事了。兩年以前，您對軍隊說：「你們不是商人，軍隊一律不得經商！」，為什麼？	W:	I know it, 2 years ago. 2 years ago, you said to the army, 「out of business, you are the army! You are not business people!」 Why?
江：	我認為部隊經商是一個腐蝕劑。因為歷史經驗已經告訴我們，任何一個國家如果軍隊經商以後，沒有一個不腐敗的，最後必然是渙散了軍心。	J:	I think the army is allowed to do business and that would erode our army. Because history has told us that any army that is allowed to engage in business eventually becomes corrupted and that would destroy the marrow and the flighting will of the army.
華：	您提到了腐敗這個問題。天安門過後一個月，這個小插曲過後一個月，您寫了一篇演說，裏面說：「腐敗已經在黨內根深蒂固，無處不在，罪孽深重。如果我們所有的黨政機關都利用他們手中的權力謀取物質利益，這與光天化日之下攫取人民又有什麼區別？」那些在天安門的學生也在激烈地反對您說提到的腐敗問題，因此顯然他們對您和你們的黨會有一些影響。	W:	You raise the subject of corruption. One month after Tiananmen, one month after that episode, you wrote a speech. And in it, you said, 「corruption is growing in the soil, in the air, in lots of crimes. If all our party and our government organs use their power to seek material benefits. Isn’t this just like fleecing the people in broad daylight?」 Those students in Tiananmen had also been protesting against the corruption that you talked about. So apparently they did have some effect on you and on your Party.
江：	我認為腐敗是個歷史問題，古今中外，概莫能外。但我們一直堅決地反對腐敗。我國已經出了好幾樁嚴重的腐敗案件。我個人非常痛恨腐敗，但我不認為這個問題能在一夜之間解決。為了逐步根除腐敗，我們需要依靠法治的辦法，用輿論的辦法、教育的辦法逐步地把它解決。89年風波期間的確有學生高呼反對腐敗的口號，所以在這個特定的問題上，我們黨和青年學生是站在同一戰線上的。但事實上還有一小撮別有用心的人，企圖利用學生的熱情，妄圖推翻中國共產黨的領導並顛覆人民民主專政權。我們不能允許這種事情發生。我們要採取堅決的措施，否則我們就會失去努力維繫至今的穩定，這無論對中國還是對世界都沒好處。	J:	I think corruption is a historical phenomenon, in that it happened in different countries in the ancient times, and it still happens in different countries today. We have been fighting resolutely against corruption. There’ve been very serious corruption cases in our country. I hate corruption very much, but I don’t think the problem can be solved overnight. And in order to gradually eradicate the problem, we need to depend on our legal system, on our media, and also on improved education. You were right that during the disturbance of 89, some students were chanting slogans against corruption, so the specific point, the Party shares the same position with the students. But the fact is that there’re some people with ulterior motives who are trying to use the enthusiasm of the students to overthrow the leadership of the Chinese Communist Party and overthrow the socialist government, this will never be allowed. So we have to take resolute measures. And had we not done so, we would not have the national stability we have today, a stability that benefits China and the rest of the world.
華：	您以前在上海也是一名抗議學生。	W:	You were a student protestor, in Shanghai.
江：	在上海，沒錯。	J:	In Shanghai, that’s right.
華：	在國民黨時代，高呼「我們要自由，我們要民主！」的是您沒錯吧。	W:	At the time of the Nationalist, we want freedom, we want democracy, that was you.
江：	沒錯。	J:	That’s right.
華：	而這恰恰也是那些在天安門廣場上的人們所呼喊的「我們要自由，我們要民主！」，不是嗎？	W:	And that was those folks, that was those people in Tiananmen Square were saying, 「we want freedom, we want democracy」.
江：	我最初參加學生運動實在中國抗日戰爭期間，而在二戰結束後，我們又開始反抗國民黨政權，這是因為在那之前，這個國家根本沒有自由民主可言。但自從中華人民共和國成立以來，我們就一直在為努力推動國家的民主化而奮鬥。即便是在我所說的1989年的動亂期間，我們仍然能夠理解學生呼籲更加民主與自由的愛國熱情。而事實上，我們知道今天也在不懈地為推動我們的民主體制而努力工作。但關鍵在於，我們是絕無可能容許那些別有用心的人利用學生運動來顛覆政府的。	J:	I first joined the student movement against the Japanese military in China. And after World War II, we were against the Nationalist regime. Because back then, there was no freedom and democracy in the country. But ever sincr the People’s Republic of China was founded, we’ve always been working to further promote the democracy in our country. Even in the 1989 disturbance as I told you before, we could understand the passions of students who are calling for greater democracy and freedom. And we in fact, have always been working constantly up to today to improve our system of democracy. And the crux of the matter was that we could not possibly allow those people with ulterior motives to use student movement to overthrow the government.
華：	再問一個關於獨裁的問題。	W:	One more question about,… dictatorship.
江：	但說無妨。	J:	That’s right.
華：	您封鎖了互聯網，您封掉了一些網站，在中國這裏，BBC，華盛頓郵報，為什麼？為什麼要封掉這些網站？你們那麼擔心人們會從網上看到並且了解到什麼信息嗎？	W:	You bring uo the Internet. You have blocked Internet sites, here in China. The BBC, the Washington Post, why? Why block an Internet site? You don’t trust the people, somehow to be able to pick stuff up off the Internet and learn?
江：	關於這個問題實際上剛才我對你談新聞自由時已經談過了，我們希望通過互聯網獲得很多有用的信息，但是有時互聯網上也有許多不健康的東西，特別是色情內容，對我們的青年一代是十分有害的。	J:	Well, about the internet, I think we discuss this issue before when we were talking about freedom of the press. We hope that we could learn a lot of useful things and useful information from the Internet, however, sometimes there’s also unhealthy stuff especially pornography on the Internet, which does great harm to our youngsters.
華：	但是這些玩意兒BBC和華盛頓郵報的網站上並沒有。	W:	Not from BBC, and not from the Washington Post.
江：	像你剛才提到BBC啊，華盛頓郵報啊，他們被封鎖是因為一些政治新聞，這一點我們要有選擇性，正如美國同樣有選擇性。一句話，是希望從互聯網中接收有益於中國發展的信息，不管是文化的、經濟的，各方面的。但是我們希望儘可能地限制一些不利於我們的。	J:	As for example you’ve given, such as BBC and the others, they might be banned because of some of their political news reports. We need to be selective. We hope to restrict as much as possible information not conducive to China’s development.
華：	新的話題，您可能不太願意談及：人權問題。您迫害了一些基督徒。您還迫害了一個叫法輪功的東西。到底是為了什麼，有什麼理由，對這種精神層面的事業，就我的理解而言，我還在紐約偶遇了那個人，那男的名字叫李什麼來着……	W:	New subject, one you’re not going to want to talk about: Human rights. You persecute Christians. You persecute something called Falun Gong. What in the world, for what reason, this spiritual undertaking, according to my understanding, and I had met the man in New York. The man whose name is Li…
江：	李洪志。	J:	Li Hongzhi.
華：	李，李洪志？我跟他碰面了。	W:	Li, Li Hongzhi? I met him.
江：	你跟他碰面了？	J:	You met him?
華：	對啊，我坐下來跟他談了，就像這樣。他們鍛煉身體，他們相信某種超然的精神狀態，究竟是為了什麼讓您如此焦慮，以至於要去拷打、逮捕、殺害他們呢，到底為什麼？	W:	Yes, I sat down with him like this, like this.And they do exercises, they believe in a certain spiritual life. What is it that worries you so about Falun Gong that you torture, arrest, kill, etc. What is it?
江：	首先我想問問你，你也信法輪功麼？	J:	At first I would like to ask you that you also trust Falun Gong?
華：	信？我對他們一無所知好嗎。	W:	Trust them? I don’t know enough about them.
江：	我來告訴你。李洪志自稱是釋迦牟尼轉世的轉世，還是基督徒耶穌的化身，你信嗎？他說地球末日就要來臨，地球快要爆炸了。他還聲稱，我和李鵬總理致電給他請求他把地球爆炸的日期延後幾十年。但我們從來就沒有向他請求過。我想說的是他就是企圖通過這些宣傳來獲得信徒的信任，他希望給人留下一種「他跟中國領導人很熟」的印象，其實他在胡說八道。事實上，由於他的傳教，許多家庭破裂，許多人也因此喪命。因此經過謹慎的考慮，我們認為法輪功是邪教。	J:	I’ll tell you. Li Hongzhi claims to be the reincarnation of the chief Buddha, and also a reincarnated Jesus Christ. Do you believe that? He said that doomsday was about to come and he also said the earth was going to explode. He also claims that I and Mr. Li Peng former Premier, used to call him on the telephone, asking him to delay the date of the explosion of the earth maybe of several decades. But we’ve never talked to him. Well, I make all his claims he wants to achieve nothing but people’s trust, people’s belief in him. He wants to create the impression that he knows the Chinese leaders very well. In fect, what he says are misleading words. In fact, as a result of his preaching, many families were broken and many lives were lost. So after careful deliberations we drew the conclusion that Falun Gong is a cult.
華：	聽着。你們迫害了基督徒，這眾所周知。你們又迫害了法輪功。很難，很難理解為什麼向中國這樣的大國會因為信仰去迫害自己的人民。	W:	Look, you have persecuted Christians. It’s well known. You have persecuted Falun Gong. It’s difficult, it is difficult to understand why a big power like China would want to persecute people because of their religion.
江：	我想澄清一點。剛才你混淆了兩個概念：基督教和法輪功。在中國憲法保護下中國人民有宗教信仰自由，這同樣包括了對於基督教的信仰。但是法輪功是邪教，它和基督教不一樣。我還是大學生的時候，有時也會參加平安夜晚會。	J:	One Thing we have to make clear. Just mow, you mixed up two things: Christianity and Falun Gong. Under China’s constitution that Chinese people have the freedom of religious belief, including the freedom to believe in Christianity. But Falun Gong is a cult. It is totally different from Christianity. When I was a college student, I sometimes attended Christmas Eve Party.
華：	但是您這就是在承認中國基督徒確實被共產黨迫害了，不是嗎？	W:	But you will acknowledge then that the Christians have been persecuted by the Communist Party in China, yes? No?
江：	不是。我要加一個說明，就是基督徒也不能違反中國的法律。	J:	No. But like anyone else, Christians should not break Chinese laws.
華：	我們來說另外一個話題吧。您聽說過李文和這個名字嗎？您認識這個人嗎？	W:	Move to something else. You know the name of Dr. Wen Ho Lee? Do you Know the man?
江：	知道。著名科學家。	J:	I know, famous scientist.
華：	著名科學家，中國人。	W:	Famous scientist, Chinese.
江：	中國人？是海外華人。	J:	Chinese? Overseas Chinese.
華：	嗯？	W:	Hmm?
江：	海外華人。	J:	Overseas Chinese.
華：	噢，是海外華人，他在1964年來到美國，工作一路高升，最後還進了洛斯阿拉莫斯國家實驗室。最後有一天發現他是一名間諜，一名專門為您服務的間諜，是這樣嗎？	W:	Oh, overseas Chinese. He went to the United States in 1964 and had a wonderful career, and went to Los Alamos National Laboratory, and suddenly they decided that he was a spy, conceivably for you. Was he?
江：	我可以坦率地告訴你，中國與李文和一案之間沒有絲毫的瓜葛。我們只知道李文和是位著名的科學家。	J:	I can tell you frankly, China was not in any way involved in Wen Ho Lee’s case. We only know about Wen Ho Lee is a renowned scientist.
華：	到你們中國和你們的科學家深入交流的著名科學家？	W:	Who came here to Chine and talked to your Scientists?
江：	他不來呢？他訪問中國，和中國的科學家交流是件很正常的事情，就和一些中國科學家出國公幹沒有區別。嘛，我這並不是在為李文和辯護，他自己可以為自己辯護。不過請允許我引用一句中國的諺語，「欲加之罪，何患無辭」。我們不清楚這背後的政治意圖是什麼。我可以給你舉個例子，非常著名的科學家，愛因斯坦，他創立了相對論。	J:	If he not? This is just natural for him to come and visit us and to talk with the Chinese scientists. Just as normal as some Chinese scientists to also travel abroad. Well, I’m by no means trying to defend Wen Ho Lee, he can defend himself. However, allow me quote a Chinese proverb which says that 「if you are out to condemn someone, you can always trump up a charge」. We don’t know what political motives are behind it. I’ll tell you an example. The very famous scientist, Einstein. He invented the theory of Relativity.
華：	對。	W:	Right.
江：	嗯，分別在1905年和1916年。在20世紀，如果沒有量子力學，沒有相對論，那就不會有什麼原子彈。但是愛因斯坦，我可以很肯定地說，愛因斯坦他並不希望他的理論被用來製造炸彈，你懂的。所以我認為，把科學家之間的交流視為政治問題並不妥當，除非有人想藉此獲取什麼政治利益。直到今天，中國人民還是認為李文和是位德藝雙馨的科學家。	J:	That’s right. In 1905 and 1916. In 20 century, if no quantum theory, no relative theory, it will be no atomic bomb. But Einstein, I’m convinced that, Einstein, he didn’t like to use his theory to make the bomb, you know. So I don’t think it’s appropriate for people to think that exchanges among scientists should have a problem unless some people were trying to achieve some political purpose. Up to today, the Chinese still see Wen Ho Lee as a very well-renowned scientist.
華：	就這樣？	W:	That’s all?
江：	就這樣了。	J:	That’s all.
華：	不是間諜？	W:	Not a spy?
江：	當然了。	J:	Of course.
華：	您顯得很拘謹。這是今天這次對話的第一次，當我一提到李文和這名字的時候，我突然覺得這個話題會讓您難堪，其他問題好像都不是問題。	W:	You seem almost defensive. For the first time in this whole conversation when I raised the name of Wen Ho Lee, all of a sudden I sensed… this is a difficult subject for you, and none other have, I, have I felt that way.
江：	我沒有什麼好難堪的，這只是你的感覺。	J:	This is not difficult to me. This is your feeling.
華：	好吧。	W:	All right.
江：	可能是燈光的問題吧。	J:	Maybe under the lights.
華：	可能真是燈光的問題。我之所以要問關於李文和的問題是因為我跟他偶遇，我發現他……	W:	Conceivably under the lights. The reason I asked about Wen Ho Lee is because I met him, and found him…
江：	那你認為呢？	J:	But what do you think?
華：	這種事輪不到我考慮。	W:	I’m not supposed to think.
江：	你既然說李文和是間諜，那你到底覺不覺得他是中國間諜呢？	J:	You say Wen Ho Lee’s a spy, Chinese spy, or not?
華：	我認不認為？	W:	Do I think?
江：	沒錯。你需要好好考慮一下。	J:	That’s right. You are to consider carefully.
華：	我在好好斟酌，因為我手裏並沒有太多信息，可能別的人更加了解。但是既然您問了我會回答的。	W:	I am considering very carefully, because my, I don’t have all of the information perhaps that somebody else does. But you’ve asked, and I’ll answer.
江：	你掌握的消息也許比我知道的要多得多了。	J:	You have the information may be much more than I.
華：	不見得。	W:	No, well.
江：	我都是看報紙才知道的。	J:	I’m only from the newspaper.
華：	是啊。	W:	Yeah, well.
江：	不過我想……	J:	But I think…
華：	我不……	W:	I don’t, ah, ah…
江：	我想這是我第一次……	J:	But I think first time I…
華：	您第一次難倒我了。	W:	You’ve stumped me.
江：	不。這是我第一次發現原來你也很難回答這個問題。	J:	No. first time I discover you face the difficult to answer this question.
華：	是的沒錯，沒錯，我也許不該回答這個問題。因為我的立場是一個理性客觀的新聞工作者。再問多一個問題。他的辯護律師說李文和之所以成為被迫害的犧牲品僅僅是因為他是美籍華人。您對他說的話有什麼看法嗎？	W:	Yes, that’s true. That’s true. I probably shouldn’t answer. Because I’m dispassionate reporter, an objective reporter. One more question. His attorney says that Dr. Wen Ho Lee was single out for persecution simply because he was a Chinese-American. Does that make any sense to you?
江：	我想我已經就李文和一案把我想說的話都說了。我希望美國在處理這一類安檢的時候不要帶有種族主義的色彩，而是要遵從亞伯拉罕·林肯所提倡的眾生平等原則。	J:	I think I’ve already said everything I want to say about the Wen Ho Lee Case. I hope the United States will not have any racial discrimination in handling such cases, in that instead it will follow the principal that all men are created equal, as advocated by Abraham Lincoln.
華：	您這樣就很像一個共和黨黨員了。	W:	That makes you a republican.
江：	我也不傾向於美國哪個特定黨派的立場，因為我在美國兩黨都有許多朋友。不管如何，我終究是一名中國共產黨員。	J:	I don’t side with any individual political party in the United States because I have many friends in both parties. Anyway, I’m a member of Communist Party of China.
華：	中國的北戴河是不是相當於美國的戴維營？	W:	Is this the Chinese equivalent of Camp David, Beidaihe?
江：	但是它是一個每年夏天我們的中央官員都會來這裏的傳統，但我們不是來這裏度假的，我們還是會像在北京一樣處理日常事務。只不過有時會去游泳。我的醫生一直在建議我游泳，今早我就去游了一次，這是我今年夏天的第21次游泳。	J:	It is a tradition to move our office here every summer. But in fact, we are not having a vacation here because we conduct our normal business as we do in Beijing, except here we may go for a swim. My doctor often suggests that I should siwm, I swam this morning for 21st time this summer.
華：	中國領導人都有游泳的傳統，毛澤東遊，鄧小平游，江澤民，誰會是你的接班人？他也會游泳嗎？	W:	It’s the tradition for Chinese leaders to swim, Mao Tsetung swam, Deng Xiaoping swam, Jiang Zemin…who’s gonna be your successor, and is he a swimmer?
江：	我想這也許只是一個巧合，不過游泳確實可以讓你放鬆身心、振作精神。	J:	That may be a coincidence that we all swam. But it is true that swimming makes you feel relaxed and refreshed.
華：	四年之前，您曾召集一批學者和歷史學家在北戴河開會討論有關中國道德滑坡的問題，這也是我們在西方所面臨的問題。道德淪喪，傳統價值觀崩潰，還會愈演愈烈，不是嗎？好的。這會不會是「致富光榮」造成的後果？鄧小平說過：「致富光榮」。然後一夜之間，人們就……這些都發生在您開啟你們中國特色資本主義的那一年。呃……會不會是這個樣子，當我們人類得到更多的物質財富的時候，我們的內心就會變得更加驕奢淫逸？	W:	Four years ago here in Beidaihe, you called together a group of scholars and historians to discuss the moral crisis in China, Problem that we face in the west as well. The death of moral, the disaggregation of traditional values. Still going on, isn’t it? Yes. Could this be a result of 「To get rich is glorious」? Deng Xiaoping said, to get rich is glorious. And all of a sudden, people began… That’s when, that’s when you started your capitalism with your Chinese characteristics. Arr… Is it conceivable that the more material gains that we make as human beings, the more we become hedonists, permissive?
江：	你應該說對了時間點，大概是四年前吧。其實這個題目我們經常研究，不管哪一個國家，好幾千年以來，特別是在中國，因為歷史比較悠久，對於精神文明和道德誠信一直是非常重視的。鄧小平的中國特色社會主義是要人們致富，確實是允許一部分地區、一部分人先富起來，但我們的目的是要達到共同富裕。「致富光榮」並不是資本主義。社會主義是要讓全體人民富裕幸福，並建設一個富強的國家。我今年二月份在廣東給他們講，你們現在比起中國其他的地方，比西部的省市要富了，但是要「致富思源、富而思進」，不能坐享其成。我想一邊物質豐富，一邊道德滑坡，這是我們所有國家領導人都不願意見到的。	J:	You may be right about the timing, it was maybe 4 years ago, in fact, this question is a frequently discussed topic for us. China is a nation with a long history, and we have already attached great importance to spiritual civilization and moral integrity. And the theory of building socialism with Chinese characteristics, as advocated by Deng Xiaoping, does allow certain people in some areas to become rich first, but the ultimate objective is to achieve common prosperity. 「To get rich is glorious」 is not capitalism. Socialism is to make their country strong and prosperous. In February, I visited the part of the Guangdong Province, where I said to the people there that you are richer than some other parts of China, and you need to think about the source of your wealth that you should build up your prosperity and not to just sit back and enjoy what you have achieved. I think the last thing world leaders want to see is the scenario while you have material wealth on one hand, but moral decline on the other.
華：	但是，主席先生您自己就曾告誡過中國人民，您說「要抵制西方腐朽影響的侵蝕」。您說的「西方腐朽影響的侵蝕」具體指的是什麼，主席先生？	W:	But, you yourself, Mr. President, you yourself have urged people, I quote, 「to filter out decadent western influences.」 Which, which decadent western influences are you talking about, Mr. President?
江：	應該這麼說，我恐怕不能就腐朽給出比你更清晰的答案，因為我畢竟沒有在美國生活過。例如拉斯維加斯，我從來沒在那裏生活過，但我在電影裏看到過那些場景。美國的領導人，包括原來的總統布什、卡特，也包括現在的總統克林頓，我們也都非常擔心，青年一代的道德領域受到這種墮落道德觀的影響。	J:	I’m afraid I can’t give you a clearer answer about this decadence than you can, because I have not lived In the United States. For example, Las Vegas, I’ve never been there, but I’ve seen it on movie pictures. I and the American leaders including former president Bush and Carter, and the current president Clinton are worried about the influence of decadence on the morals of young people.
華：	您懂的，我肯定主席您知道幾乎所有優秀的荷里活電影都廣為流傳，也包括中國這裏，但這貌似就成了您和你們黨與中國人民之間眾多的分歧之一。他們很喜歡這些電影，但你們卻想把它們拒之門外。難道是因為中國人民都很腐朽麼？	W:	You know, I’m sure Mr. President that you know that, virtually every good Hollywood film is passed around, here in China. That sounded to be the one of the gaps between you and the Party, and the people of China. They welcome it. You want to keep them out. Is it because the Chinese people are decadent?
江：	我們並不抵制西方電影，事實上，我也很熱衷於觀賞西方電影。當我還是大學生的時候，我特別愛看《一曲難忘》《魂斷藍橋》《出水芙蓉》還有《青山翠谷》。西方哪部電影我沒看過？	J:	We don’t have any objections to western films. In fact, I’m also a viewer of the western movies. When I was a college student, I loved A Song to Remember, Waterloo Bridge, Bathing Beauty, and How Green Was My Valley. I’ve seen many American and European films.
華：	不過我們談的是關於腐朽的問題，我們談的是，您是否認為美國比中國更加腐朽？您是否覺得美國正在向中國出口腐朽？	W:	But we are talking about decadence, we are talking, do you think America is more decadent, for instance, than China, and that we are exporting out decadence to you?
江：	呃，應該這麼說，我們兩國在歷史傳統、生活習慣、宗教信仰方面有很多差異，有些可能你們認為不是頹廢的東西，但是到中國來會被認為頹廢。所以我們必須有一定的選擇性。比方說《鐵達尼號》在中國很火，我也看過這部電影，我還看了《角鬥士》和《阿甘正傳》。電影裏面聲稱角鬥士描述了古羅馬帝國的部分歷史，這就與歷史真相有所違背了。不過這些我們完全可以理解，這是藝術加工。	J:	Well, about decadence. Our two countries may be different in terms of historical tradition, way of life and religious belief etc. So maybe there are things that you aren’t regarded as decadent in the United States, that are regarded as decadent in China. That’s why we have to be very selective. For instance, Titanic was a big hit in China, and I watched the film. I also saw Gladiator and Forrest Gump. For example, the movie called gladiator describes a part of history in the Rome Empire, there may be a slight deviation from the historical truth. But it is something we fully understand. It is an artistic creation.
華：	阿爾·戈爾，喬治·W·布什，他們兩人之一將會在您國家主席任期內成為美國總統。如果他們現在正在收看這個節目，您想就未來的中美關係對他們說些什麼呢？這是很嚴肅的問題。	W:	Al Gore, George W Bush, one of them is going to be president of the United States when you are still president of China. If they are watching right now, what would you want to sat to them about future US relationship with China? Serious questions.
江：	我剛才講了，我在兩黨領導層和兩黨黨員中都有許多朋友。	J:	As I said to you earlier, I have a lot of good friends within the leadership of the two parties, and many members of two parties.
華：	那您是給雙方陣營都給錢了麼？	W:	So you give money to both their campaigns?
江：	我們沒有在這方面的……但是我，我這個意思不是說給錢。我是說無論什麼人成為總統，他都會盡力推進中美之間的友好關係，因為這符合全世界的戰略利益。有些人叫我不要在意候選人針對中國的不友好言論，因為一旦當選，他們就會變得更友好些。我只希望他說的是真的。	J:	Are you just joking? We have never done such thing. I have read the campaign platforms of both parties and I believe whoever becomes president too will try to improve the friendly relations between China and the United States for this is in the strategic interest of the whole world. Someone asked me not to pay attention to unfriendly remarks candidates might make about China during the campaign because once elected, they will be friendly. I only hope that’s true.
華：	啊，比爾·克林頓就是這麼做的。他以前對中國說過醜話，等到他當選以後，對中國的態度轉變相當大，不是嗎？	W:	Well, that’s what Bill Clinton did. He made unfriendly remarks about China, and after he was elected, he because quite different about China, didn’t he?
江：	你會知道這些事的。	J:	You’ll know that.
華：	許多人相信，主席先生，您和你們的黨與中國人民做了一筆交易。您給他們帶來經濟自由，社會自由，讓他們安居樂業……	W:	Many people believe, Mr. President, that you have made a deal, you and your party, with the people of China. You give them economic freedom, social freedom to work, live where and how they want.
江：	還有遷徙自由？	J:	Traveling?
華：	作為交換，他們放棄了任何挑戰共產黨權威的權利。	W:	And exchange, they give up any right to challenge the authority of the Communist Party. That’s about it, yes?
江：	很坦率地講，我們雙方在價值觀念上確實還有很大的不同。美國人往往用你們的邏輯思維去推斷其他國家的政治、其他國家的各種情況。你們美國的價值觀強調的是公平交易，而我們的價值觀里一直崇尚有一個很好的集體，相互協作。在你們的國家也有相互幫助，但是我們對於「交易」的理解跟你們西方不太一樣。我們中國共產黨的宗旨就是為人民服務，我們在為人民服務的過程中要取得人民的信任。新中國建立以後經過幾十年的奮鬥，也經過一段曲折的道路，但是鄧小平確立的的開放政策非常成功，我們現在叫中國特色的社會主義。但是，西方往往希望我們變成資本主義，但如果全世界只有一種體系在運轉，那我們這個世界就太單調了，我認為世界應該是豐富多彩的。我們要學習所有西方先進的思想、文化，包括科學技術、經濟的經驗。當然，這必須跟我國的國情相結合。正是由於遵循這個原則，我們這幾十年取得了比較大的成績。	J:	Let me be frank with you, I think China and the United States differ greatly in terms of value. You Americans always use your own value and logic in making judgements about the specific situations or say political situation of other countries. Your American values emphasize deal making, but what we value most is a good collective where people support and assist each other. You also have mutual support in your country, but our perception of the word 「deal」 is different from your word in the west. The purpose and principal of the Communist Party are to serve the People, in this process, we win the trust and confidence of our people. Since the founding of the People’s Republic, we have travelled through twists and turns in our decades of developing the nation. The policy of reforming and opening-up, initiated by Deng Xiaoping, was a great success. So now, we are building a China, socialism with Chinese characteristics. But people in the west always hope that Chinese can become a capitalistic country. But with only one system around. Would the world be a very dull place? I still believe the world should be a diverse and colorful one. We want to learn from the western world everything advanced and progressive, including science and technology, and its experience in managing economy. Of course, this must be combined with specific conditions here. And it’s exactly because we have followed these principles that we have scored great achievement in the past few decades.
華：	接下來又是關於美國「窮兵黷武」的問題。如果美國繼續部署導彈防禦系統，正如克林頓總統所說的那樣，中國是否會以研製更多的導彈來回應？	W:	This goes, this following the business about the United States being 「power man」. If the United States would go ahead with the missile system, the President Clinton has talked about, would China respond by building more missiles?
江：	我認為我們逐漸提升我們的國防能力是很正常的事情。	J:	I think it’s just normal for China to gradually strengthen our capability for national defense.
華：	就這麼簡單嗎？因為您對擴大導彈防禦的可能性一直持激烈反對的態度。就是從這時您開始議論我們，開始在你們的報紙上說我們是「窮兵黷武」，「唯恐天下不亂」什麼的。	W:	That’s it? Because you complain bitterly about the possibility of our expanded missile defense by the United States. That’s when you began to talk about our being, somebody in your newspapers, began to talk about our being 「power man」, and 「not interested in peace」 and so forth.
江：	我們反對你們搞國家導彈防禦系統]]，反對搞戰區導彈防禦計劃，我們也是很矛盾的。	J:	We are opposed to national missile defense and theater missile defense plan. We are ambiguous about this.
華：	因為？	W:	Because?
江：	因為這在世界上造成了一種氣氛，使人們感覺到不是大家都在從事和平與發展的共同事業。中國考慮的就是我們絕不會使我們國家的安全利益受到損害。你們的導彈防禦非常自然地會使我們感到這是一種威脅。	J:	Because that would create an atmosphere where people cannot possibly engage in the effort to achieve the common task of peace and development. Our national security interest must not be impaired in any way. Your missile defense may naturally be perceived by people as a kind of threat.
華：	這哪裏是威脅呢。	W:	A threat against tomb.
江：	它對我們而言就是個威脅。舉例來說，我們就很擔憂台灣加入美日的導彈防禦系統。	J:	It is a threat against us. For instance, we are worried about the possibility of Taiwan being incorporated into a US-Japan missile defend system.
華：	您剛才講，希望能改善美中關係，對吧？好的。那麼您想怎樣來改善與美國的關係呢，主席先生？	W:	You’ve said that you want to improve relations with United States, yes? OK. What would you do to improve relations with the United States, Mr. President?
江：	我想在這一點上最主要的就是我們希望領導人之間要有一個登高望遠的觀點。我們要站得高才能望得遠。事實上，1993年，我與克林頓見面時，我就講了中國的詩句：「欲窮千里目，更上一層樓」，這就是登高望遠。戈爾來的時候，我也跟他講了我們宋朝宰相王安石的一首詩，「不畏浮雲遮望眼，自緣身在最高層」。美國比起中國來說的個相對年輕得多的國家，因此你們的歷史包袱也比較少。你們的人民也一貫表現出一種激發創新的精神。	J:	Most importantly, the leaders of both countries should scale a great height and adopt a long term perspective. We need to stand high and look far. And in fact, when I was having my very first meeting with President Clinton in 1993, I quote a Chinese line, 「to have a grand sight, you must scale a great height.」 And when vice president Gore travelled to China, I also quoted some lines from the Song Dynasty. It goes, 「I do not fear the floating clouds might block my view, because I am standing on the highest peak.」 The United States is a much younger country compared with China, so may be you have fewer historical burdens. And your people demonstrate an innovate inspiration spirit.
華：	但在我看來，在我看來，你就是一位獨裁者，一個極權主義者。	W:	You are, you are, it seems to me, a dictator, and an authoritarian.
江：	不，但我……但我非常坦率地說，我是絕不會認同你說我是一名獨裁者的觀點的。	J:	No, but I… Very frank speaking, I don’t agree with your point, I’m a dictator.
華：	我知道，我知道你不會承認的，但美國也有句古話叫做「如果走着像鴨子，叫着像鴨子，那麼它就是只鴨子。」獨裁者就是那些會瘋狂打壓不管是新聞自由還是宗教自由或者私有經濟的人，我覺得現在你有點朝這方面發展的傾向了。你就像最高權威的嚴父家長，有誰敢心懷忤逆，你就會收拾他。這就是一個政治上的獨裁者。	W:	I know you don’t. I know that you don’t. But there’s an old American phrase about it. 「If it walks like a duck and quacks like a duck and so forth it’s a duck.」 A dictator is somebody who forcibly whether it’s free press or free religion or free private enterpris, now you’re beginning to come a little closer to that. Your father, knows best. And if you get in the way of father, father will take care of you. That’s what a dictator is in eccect politically.
江：	你……這是天方夜譚。中國的現實是我們確實接受中國共產黨的領導，但是我們從法律上來講，共產黨只會提議，最後由人民代表大會來決定。	J:	I think your way of describing what things are like in China is absurd as what Arabian nights may sound like. The reality in China is that we have leadership by the Communist Party. According to law, the Party only makes recommendations. Everything needs to be approved by the National People’s Congress.
華：	由人民代表大會來決定？	W:	By the National People’s Congress?
江：	對。	J:	Of course.
華：	完全由你們的黨員把持的人大？	W:	All from your members of the party?
江：	所有的國務院的領導和所有部長，他們的提名都需要人民代表大會通過的，日常事務由國務院負責。共產黨內權力最高的是全國代表大會，代表大會選出中央委員會，中央委員會選出政治局。政治局有常委會，我是其中的一名常委。我們政治局常委每個星期都要開會，完全是在開放民主的氣氛當中，如果沒有全體成員的通過，我做不出任何決定。	J:	All the ministers, their nomination are approved by the National People’s Congress, and also the leadership of the State Council. So the State Council looks after the day-to-day business of the country. The supreme power of the Communist Party lies with the National People’s Congress. And the National Congress chooses the Central Committee, and the Central Committee has a Politburo. The Politburo has a Standing Committee of which I am a member. So every week the Standing Committee members have a meeting. And the meeting is held in an open, democratic atmosphere, when one member of the Standing Committee has objection, I’ll not make a decision.
華：	聽着，這是最後一個問題了，關於獨裁。您知道的。當我看到那個手無寸鐵的年輕人在天安門廣場的坦克前面的圖片，這對我而言，代表着中國的獨裁，這是最好的象徵。這個畫面深深震撼了我對中國獨裁的認識。	W:	Look, one last question, dictatorship. You know what? When I see the picture of that one young man in front of the tank in Tiananmen Square. That to me means Chinese dictatorship, that’s a wonderful symbol. That hits, hits me in my heart about dictatorship in China.
江：	不需要翻譯了，我知道你想說什麼。我很願意回答這個問題，因為ABC的芭芭拉·沃爾特斯十年前就問過我同樣的問題，而且給我看了那個照片。我說過，這個年輕人沒有被逮捕，也沒有受到傷害，因為坦克在他面前停下來，拒絕碾過他。芭芭拉也告訴我這個年輕人的名字，我可能忘了，但我問過在公共安全情報機關工作的負責人，他們利用儘可能多的關係網絡來尋找這個年輕人，經過一個月的調查，我們確信這個年輕人並沒有被捕。	J:	Don’t need translation. I know what you said, ha ha. I’m very willing to answer these questions because Barbara Walters of ABC had asked me the same question about 10 years ago and gave me a photo. And I said this young man was not arrested and did not get hurt because the tank stopped in front of him and refused to crash him. And Barbara also gave me the name of who she believed was the young man, although I may have forgotten the specific name. but I ask people who are working with the public security agencies to use all of their networks to check out where was that young man, And after a month-long investigation, I can say for sure that this young man has not been arrested.
華：	你有沒有一點欽佩他的勇氣？	W:	Did a part of you admire his courage？
江：	但是我從未見過他，儘管我們試圖找出他在哪裏，不過我們確實知道他沒有被捕。我們真不知道他現在到底在中國的哪裏。但從圖片上看，我相信他有他內心的想法，至於想法正不正確，那完全是另一回事，我不確定是誰或者什麼事物影響了他……	J:	In fact, I’ve never met this young man, although we try to search out where was that, but we do know that he was never arrested. I do not know where he lives now in China. But looking at the picture, I know he definitely has his own ideas, but whether his idea was a correct one, that’s entirely a different question. I cannot tell for sure who and what influences him.
華：	你還沒有回答我的問題，主席先生。你，江澤民的內心是否會讚美欽佩他的勇氣？	W:	You have not answer the question, Mr. President. Did, did a part of Jiang Zemin, admire, admire his courage?
江：	我……因為我想你想讓我說什麼，但我想強調的是，我們充分尊重每一個人民自由表達願望與訴求的權利，但我不會贊同與政府公然對抗。即便是在如此緊急的情況下，我們的人民軍隊還是表現出相當的理智與克制。	J:	Well, I know what you are driving at, but what I want to emphasize is that we fully respect people’s rights to freely express their wishes and desires. But I do not favor any flagrant opposition for the government measures during an extortionary situation. The tank stopped, and did not run over the young man. Even under extortionary circumstances, our troops remain very rational and reasonable.
華：	看來您是不想再回答這個問題了，這我能理解。不過我並不是在說那輛坦克，我是在談論那個人的內心，那個孤單的年輕人，和他的勇氣。那個年輕人孑然一人站在……以前在上海，你也是一名抗議學生。我想江澤民您，如果能回到之前他們那個年紀的話，應該也會去做同樣的事情。那大槪是您加入共產黨之前的事情了吧。這才是我問這個問題的目的。	W:	I’m not going to get answered, I understand. But I’m not talking about the tank, I’m talking that man’s heart, that man’s courage. That man, that lonely man, standing against that… You were a student protestor, like a Shanghainese. I can see that perhaps you, Jiang Zemin, would have done the same thing at that time before, that was before you joined the Communist Party. That’s, that’s what I’m asking.
江：	1943年的時候我還在南京上大學，那時候日本人已經強佔了包括南京在內的許多中國領土，日本人希望讓中國人對鴉片上癮，所以我們自發組織了反鴉片運動，搗毀了許多鴉片藥房。當我們遭遇到日軍，他們拿着刺刀和步槍指向我們的時候，我們就唱了抗議歌曲《同學們大家起來保衛祖國》：♪同學們，大家起來，擔負起天下的興亡，聽吧，滿耳是大眾的嗟傷，看吧，一年年國土的淪喪♪	J:	In 1943, I was still in Nanjing, attending university. The Japanese occupied many parts of China, including Nanjing. The Japanese wanted the Chinese to get addicted to opium, so we launched an entire opium movement and smashed many opium houses. When we confronted the Japanese military who are pointing their bayonets and guns at us, we sang a protest song Arise My Fellow Classmates and Defend the Motherland. ♪ Arise! My fellow classmates! It’s time to shoulder your responsibility to defend our motherland! Take a sound of people’s bemoan! Have a view of this invaded country! ♪
華：	您做過調查去了解中國人民都在想些什麼嗎？	W:	Do you take opinion pools to find out what the Chinese people are thinking?
江：	我們選擇一部分人做樣本詢問他們的意見，去了解他們的想法，而且我們也是在科學方法的基礎上作出結論的。	J:	We selected over the people a sample to ask their opinion, and we try to know what they are thinking. And also, we also make the conclusion based on scientific methods.
華：	不過你的調查方式和比爾·克林頓也差不多。	W:	But you poll just the way Bill Clinton polls.
江：	嗯，我也和一些人民群眾保持密切的接觸和聯繫。	J:	Well, I also have some personal contacts and keep in personal touch with people.
華：	到今天為止，您是否還認為美國是故意轟炸了中國駐貝爾格萊德的使館？	W:	Do you today, Mr. President, do you still believe that the United States bombed your embassy in Belgrade on purpose?
江：	嗯，我只能反過來對你講，美國是擁有高度技術的國家，以美國的頂尖科技，所有關於「誤炸」的說法都難以讓人信服。	J:	Well, let me put it the other way around. The United States has state-of-the-art technology, so all the explanations that they have given us for what they call a mistaken bombing are absolutely unconvincing.
華：	您不相信……那美國到底為了什麼要炸了你們駐貝爾格萊德的大使館呢？	W:	You don’t believe that. What, what would the United States get out of bombing your embassy in Belgrade?
江：	這對於我們來說也是一個問題。又是一個問題。你們的軍事指揮系統又是那麼先進，你們有先進的無線電通訊設備，而我們大使館的標誌又是那麼清楚，不可能會漏掉，為什麼最後還是會發生這樣的事情，這仍是一個疑問。不過我們還是保留原有的態度，期待中美關係在新世紀能得到改善。	J:	This for me is also a question. Also a question. Because you have such state-of-the-art technology, and sophistic military command system with advanced radio communication device, and also the identification marks for the Chinese embassy in Belgrade were too clear for people to miss. So why did this happen? It’s still a question. But we still adopted an attitude of looking forward to improving Chinese-US relation in the new century.
華：	我明白，不過那都是後話了。但是，但是您也應該明白，即便是中央情報局和五角大樓也是會犯錯誤的，犯些愚蠢的錯誤。這僅僅是誤炸，美國人對此毫不懷疑，至少我這麼認為。你們的飛機是不會去轟炸我們的大使館的。你能想像嗎？如果一家中國轟炸機炸了我們那個大使館會怎麼樣？那會激怒美國，就像中國現在的感受一樣。「為什麼你們要炸我們的大使館呢？」所以我們為何要炸你們的大使館呢？我們難道要炸使館來傳遞什麼信息嗎？為什麼不直接說出來呢？說我們到底想幹什麼？這只是一次誤炸，不是故意的。	W:	I understand that. And that’s behind this. But, but, you know it’s possible for the CIA and the Pentagon to make mistakes, stupid mistakes. The American People, the American people have no doubt, no doubt in their mind, I think, that this was simply a mistake. Your planes would not bomb one of our embassies. Can you imagine? If a Chinese plane bomb one of our embassies? That will be heavily paid off America, as there was heavily paid in China. But I… Why would you want to bomb our embassy? Why would we bomb your embassy? What message are we sending? I bombed your Chinese embassy. Why not you just say? You know something? It was, it was a mistake, it was an accident.
江：	就是你們克林頓講過，事件發生過後，在電話中已經好多次對我表達他的歉意。但是我告訴他：當時，貝爾格萊德的使館被炸以後，我們12億人奮起怒吼。我告訴你們的總統，雖然我們人口這麼多，但是我們人的生命、每個人的生命還是非常寶貴的，有3個人犧牲了，我還對他講，幾百年你們有合理的解釋，想要憑此來引導12億多民眾怒吼的情緒引導到一個理智的軌道上去也不是一件容易的事。既然你代表美國人民，而我代表中國人民，那我們在這個問題上是無法取得完全共識的。	J:	After the incident took place, President Clinton call me on the telephone several times explaining his apology to me. And I said to him that after the bombing in Belgrade of the Chinese embassy, the 1,200,000,000 Chinese people, they all stood up in an angry raw against the incident. And I said to the president, to your president, though we have a very large population, we still highly cherish each and every Chinese life, which we believe, is all too, too precious. We lost 3 lives in that bombing. And I said to him, it’s not easy to guide the feelings of 1,200,000,000 angry people towards sensibility in good reason. And since you represent Americans, just as I represent Chinese, it would be impossible for us to reach total agreement on this issue.
華：	到2003年，總統先生，您將會結束你的任期，沒錯吧？	W:	In 2003, Mr. President, you are through with this term of office, yes?
江：	沒錯啊。我的國家主席任期將在2003年結束，黨總書記任期在2002年結束。	J:	That’s right. My term for the president will end in 2003, and for General Secretary in 2002.
華：	就是說到那時候您會放棄現在的三個職位嗎？	W:	2002, 2003, are you going to, you intend to give up any of your three posts?
江：	你看，你問了一個又敏感又棘手的問題。今天在這裏我無法明確的回答你……因為這取決於我們的民主體制。這一切都要交由全體中國人民和全黨的同志來一起決定。無論如何，我們必須首先確保這個擁有12億人口的大國權力交接能夠平穩過渡。我相信這次採訪將會極大地推動我們兩國人民之間的友誼與相互理解。我說完了。	J:	Oh, you ask very sharp tough questions. Well, I’m afraid I can’t give you a definite answer today at this moment, because what will happen will be decided through our democratic system. It all depends on what entire Chinese people and what entire membership of the COC will say. Anyway, we have to make sure that the stability is maintained in such a big country with 1,200,000,000 population. I’m convinced that this interview will be further promoting the friendship and mutual understanding between our two peoples. That is all.
華：	您這樣認為嗎？	W:	You believe that?
江：	沒錯。我相信，確信無疑。	J:	That’s right. I’m convinced that. I trust it.
華：	你們很嚮往美國？	W:	You admire America?
江：	沒錯。	J:	That’s right.
華：	你們希望與美國交朋友？	W:	And you want to be friends?
江：	我真心希望能推動我們中美兩國人民之間的相互理解。	J:	I want to promote mutual understanding between our two peoples.

2000年TVB記者張寶華採訪

2000年10月27日^[4]，香港女記者張寶華問及是否「欽點」董建華連任行政長官，面對香港記者不斷的追問，江澤民表示香港記者水平有限，並作出有關回應。^[5]

2000年TVB記者張寶華採訪

註：新聞二台與翡翠台針對此段發言所配字幕稍有不同。例如，對於「悶聲大發財」，新聞二台用的是「發大財」，而翡翠台用的是「大發財」；除此之外，很多口語細節都沒有在字幕中反映出來。有鑑於此，本段語錄儘量根據江的原話進行編寫。此次訪問時江澤民在說普通話的同時夾雜粵語、英語，下面會將原文標出，粵語使用斜體，必要時附上翻譯。

張：江主席，你覺得董先生連任好不好啊？
江：好啊。
張：中央也支持他嗎？
江：對啊，當然啦。
張：那為什麼這麼早就提出了，有沒有別的人選呢？

張：歐盟呢最近發表了一個報告說呢……呃……北京會透過一些渠道去影響、干預香港的法治，你對這個看法有什麼回應呢？
江：沒聽到這個事。
張：是彭定康說的。
江：彭定康……你們媒體千萬要注意啊，不要「見著風，是得雨」啊。接到這些消息，你媒體本身也要判斷，明白這意思嗎？假使這些完全……無中生有的東西，你再幫他說一遍，你等於……你也有責任吧！
張：江主席，現在還那麼早呢你們就是說支持董先生呢，會不會給人感覺就是內定了、是欽點了董先生呢？
江：沒有……任何（內定、欽點）的意思。還是按照香港的……按照基本法、按照選舉的法——去產生……
張：但是你們那麼……
江：你……剛才你問我啊，我可以回答你一句「無可奉告」，那麼你們也不高興，那怎麼辦？
張：那董先生……
江：我講的意思不是說我是欽點他當下任。你問我不支……支持不支持，我是支持的。我就明確地給你告訴這一點。
張：江主席……
江：我覺得你們啊，你們……我感覺你們新聞界還要學習一個，你們非常熟悉西方的這一套 value（價值）。你們畢竟還 too young（太年輕），明白我的意思吧。我告訴你們我是身經百戰了，見得多了！啊，西方的哪一個國家我沒去過？媒體他們——你……你們要知道，美國的華萊士，那比你們不知道高到哪裏去了。啊，我跟他談笑風生！所以說媒體啊，要……還是要提高自己的知識水平！懂我的意思——識得唔識得啊？（懂不懂啊？）
江：唉，我也給你們着急啊，真的。
江：你們今日……我以為……遍地……你們有一個好，全世界跑到什麼地方，你們比其他的西方記者啊，跑得還快。但是呢，問來問去的問題啊，都 too simple（太膚淺），啊，sometimes naïve!（有時很幼稚！）懂了沒啊？
張：那江主席，你覺得……
江：識得唔識得啊？

（一片嘈雜聲）

江：我很抱歉，我今天是作為一個長者給你們講的。我不是新聞工作者，但是我見得太多了，我……我有這個必要好告訴你們一點，人生的經驗。

記者：但是能不能說一下為甚麽支持董建華呢？
江：我剛才呢……我剛才我很想啊，就是我每一次碰到你們我就講，中國有一句話叫「悶聲大發財」。我就什麼話也不講。這是最好的！但是我想，我見到你們這樣熱情啊，一句話不說也不好。所以你剛才你一定要——在宣傳上將來如果你們報道上有偏差，你們要負責任。我沒有說要欽定（董建華），沒有任何這個意思。但是你問……你一定要這樣地問我……對董先生支持不支持。我們不支持他？他現在是當特首，我們怎麼能不支持特首？

記者：但是如果說連任呢？
江：對不對？
江：欸，連任也要按照香港的法律啊，對不對？要要……要按照香港的……當然我們的決定權也是很重要的。香港的特區……特別行政區是屬於中國……人民共和（中華人民共和國）的中央人民政府啊。哈？到那個時候我們會表態的！
記者：但是呢……
江：明白這意思吧？

江：你們啊，不要想……喜歡……這…弄個大新聞，說現在已經欽定了，再把我批判一番。
記者：不是，但是呢就是……
江：你們吶，naïve!（幼稚！）
記者：但是呢就是……

保安人員：好好好OKOK……

江：I'm angry!（我生氣了！）你們這樣子啊，是不行的！

保安人員：好好好，請大家離場。

江：我今天算得罪了你們一下！

2009年視察聯工國機二院

2009年4月23日，退休的江澤民到訪中國聯合工程公司時，為公司作出「求真，務實，自強，創新」的題詞，並回顧自己擔任國家領導人期間的工作成績。^[6]

2009年視察聯工國機二院

這個engineering drawing（工程圖）呢，我們就有幾年用鴨嘴的筆，旁邊一個小盒子。最痛苦的，就是鴨嘴筆把這個水弄到裏面，描圖的時候一下子就……然後就用刀片刮，這個就是描圖最痛苦的，而且這個效率efficiency……

我的這個經歷就是到了上海，到了89年的年初的時候，我在想我估計是快要離休了，我想我應該去當教授。於是我就給朱物華校長、張鍾俊這個...院長，給他們寫了一個報告。他們說歡迎你來，不過，這個Apply for Professor（申請當教授），你要去做一個報告。我就做了一個能源與發展趨勢的主要的節能措施，這個報告經過好幾百個教授一致通過。那麼上海交大教授當了以後我就做第二個報告，就是微電子工業的發展。這兩個報告做了以後不久，過後，1989年的5月31號北京就把我調到北京去了。現在這個報告做了快20年了，所以呢我就去年呢在我們交大的學報，我發表了兩篇文章，就是呼應這個89年的報告的。特別是昨天晚上，他又把我這個第二篇報告，還有我這十幾年包括在電子工業部、上海市所做的有關於信息產業化的文章，總共我聽他們講是27篇……我也沒有什麼別的東西送給你們，我們拿來以後我叫錢秘書啊，就把這兩個學報，兩個學報的英文本──因為他們這裏洋文好的人多得很哪──英文本，還有前面出過兩本書，再加上昨天晚上出的這本書，送給郭偉華同志，給你送過來，那麼給你們作為一個紀念。

那麼人吶就都不知道，自己就不可以預料。一個人的命運啊，當然要靠自我奮鬥，但是也要考慮到歷史的行程。我絕對不知道，我作為一個上海市委書記怎麼把我選到北京去了，所以鄧小平同志跟我講話，說「中央都決定啦，你來當總書記」，我說另請高明吧。我實在我也不是謙虛，我一個上海市委書記怎麼到北京來了呢？但是呢，小平同志講「大家已經研究決定了」，所以後來我就念了兩首詩（原話如此），叫「苟利國家生死以，豈因禍福避趨之」，那麼所以我就到了北京。到了北京我幹了這十幾年也沒有什麼別的，大概三件事：
- 一個，確立了社會主義市場經濟；
- 第二個，把鄧小平的理論列入了黨章；
- 第三個，就是我們知道的「三個代表」。