討論:肘巴里

翻譯修改請求

I'm really sorry to write in English here, but I wanted to ask fellow wikipedians to make a correction for this word. If you interested in the literal meaning of this word jjok-bari, please find this discussion at English Wikipedia, anti-Japanese sentiment. Some of the points I made there:

• Anyone with basic understanding of Chinese, Japanese Kanji or Korean Hanja can tell that 足 means foot/feet.
• Translating "足-발 (jok-bal)" to "豚足" or "pig's feet" is accurate, since the word refers to a "pig's feet dish".
  (though its literal translation would be "足-足" or "pedi-foot".)
• Translating "쪽-발 (jjok-bal)" to "豚足" or "pig's feet" is inaccurate, since "쪽 (jjok)" has its own meaning and doesn't have matching Hanja. It's more than just adding extra "j" to "jok-bal". In fact, "jjok (쪽)" alone is a commonly used word which means "page". (i.e. page 161 or 161 jjok)
• In any case, neither "jok (足)" nor "jjok" clearly has nothing to do with pigs (豚).
• I cannot emphasize enough that "Wikipedia is not the place for passing along gossip and rumors."

非常感謝。PBJT (Talk) --- PeanutbutterjellyTaco（留言） 2012年5月10日 (四) 15:41 (UTC)

恕我孤陋寡聞，中文似乎沒有「瓣腳」一詞，請問是甚麼意思？--RiceRice（留言） 2012年6月26日 (二) 00:21 (UTC)

我支持移回原作者使用的名稱「Jjokbari」，因為現有的翻譯若非基於原創，就是錯譯。—Iokseng（留言） 2012年6月26日 (二) 13:13 (UTC)

英文維基確實將之譯為豬腳，不讚成因一人反對而回退。--RiceRice（留言） 2012年6月26日 (二) 14:17 (UTC)

瓣腳 is my translation in Chinese. (I don't speak Chinese, and can understand only with google translation.) Feel free to correct my edit, if it don't make sense. But what I'm trying to explain is jjok is NOT same as jok (足), and jjok in Korean means a piece or page. (second syllable bal in both words means feet(足) in Korean.)

Sure, a pig feet dish is called en:Jokbal in Korea, and it sounds very similar to this racial slur. Please do not assume, however, that jjok-bal comes from jok-bal and please do not translate the term as 豬腳.

I found this error in English wiki first and explained/corrected the error. Hope Chinese wiki could have a accurate translation as well. 感謝! --PeanutbutterjellyTaco（留言） 2012年6月27日 (三) 12:03 (UTC)

從上面的討論應可知「豬腳」是個誤譯，而移動條目者似乎在對此不清楚的情形下就做了移動，因此建議在有更適當的中譯出現之前，移回原作者使用的標題「Jjokbari」。—Iokseng（留言） 2012年6月27日 (三) 14:25 (UTC)

請看這裡[1]以作參考--RiceRice（留言） 2012年6月28日 (四) 07:49 (UTC)

Yes, you can find some google search which say jjok-bari comes from jok-bal or 豬腳. That doesn't mean that the search result is accurate. In English wiki, this word was included in December 2005, almost seven years ago! Chinese wiki article was created in January 2011, and from the structure of the article it looks like it's a translation from English wiki.

Below is another points I made in English wiki: en-wiki talk

1. The "pig's feet" expression was added on 29 December 2005 version by User:Ryoske without any citation.
2. In a separate page specifically dedicated to this racial slur, User: CaliforniaAliBaba created the document on 9 May 2007 with the following sentence:

... Jjokbari is generally accepted as literally meaning "pig's foot" (jjok being pig, bal being foot). ...

1. User:CaliforniaAliBaba mistakenly assumed that "jjok" means "a pig" in Korean, which is wrong.
2. The Standard Korean dictionary by Korean language institute shows the origin of word as "≒짜-개-발(jja-gae-bal)" or "split feet".

--PeanutbutterjellyTaco（留言） 2012年6月28日 (四) 09:31 (UTC)

Why should we believe in your interpretation over other references, I think that is the question.罵人的說話，或多或少都要有侮辱成分。翻譯為豬腳其實頗貼切，請看圖[2][3]。--RiceRice（留言） 2012年6月28日 (四) 09:04 (UTC)

For better or worse, it is a Korean vocabulary. And when you want to know the definition of the word, dictionary would be the best source. (and a reliable source, too.) The standard Korean dictionary explains the word that:

일본 사람을 낮잡아 이르는 말. 엄지발가락과 나머지 발가락들을 가르는 게다를 신는다는 데서 온 말이다. ≒짜개발
(in translation) derogatory slur for Japanese people. When wearing tabis, it splits the thumb toe and other toes. derived from split-hoof like feet or 짜개발

Please note that link for the dictionary doesn't work directly. You have to type keyword "쪽발이" to see the definition. ::Although wikitionary isn't a WP:RS, please allow me to provide it as a explanatory purpose.

• jjok (or 쪽) [4]: means 頁 or 塊兒.
• bal (or 발) [5]: means 腳 or 足.
• jok (or 족, 足) [6]: is the Korean hanja pronunciation for 足.
• Both jok (Korean hanja word) and bal(native Korean word) means the same thing, feet. Neither one has a meaning of 豚 or pig.
• jjok isn't a different rendering of jok (single j/ㅈ or double jj/ㅉ)

Once again Sorry that I keep writing in English. 感謝!

--PeanutbutterjellyTaco（留言） 2012年6月28日 (四) 09:31 (UTC)

"split-hoof like feet" 直譯為「裂蹄似的腳」，用來罵人多彆扭，「豬腳」已經形神具似，況且這稱呼亦有媒體使用。--RiceRice（留言） 2012年6月28日 (四) 09:37 (UTC)

Let me highlight something:

"Wikipedia is not the place for passing along gossip and rumors."

If you think 豬腳 is correct, then you need to show that your sources are WP:RS even more than the vocabulary's dictionary definition. --PeanutbutterjellyTaco（留言） 2012年6月28日 (四) 09:53 (UTC)

參考：[7][8]--RiceRice（留言） 2012年6月28日 (四) 09:59 (UTC)

RiceRice, I understand your concern. This was the exactly same question that I have to dealt with in English wiki when I raised this question: "My claim is WP:OR". Please note, however, that this isn't my personal opinion. I'm trying to explain the Korean language dictionary's definition of this word. Like I showed above, many people mistakenly assumed that the word means pig's feet, <jjok being pig, bal being foot>, when they contributed to Wikipedia.

And you know what? I'm repeating exactly same argument here in Chinese wiki. No, "split-hoof like feet" doesn't necessary mean pig's feet or 豬腳: many animals have 蹄 [9], and pig isn't the only animal with 蹄. You don't translate 蹄 to 豬腳, do you? --PeanutbutterjellyTaco（留言） 2012年6月28日 (四) 09:44 (UTC)

「豬腳」與「豬蹄」某程度上是通用的，最主要是「豬腳」已有媒體採用。豬狗不如，在中國是罵人的說話；馬到成功、壯建如牛、三羊啟泰是用來讚美的。--RiceRice（留言） 2012年6月28日 (四) 09:52 (UTC)

Okay, I understand what you mean. But if you look closely to the word's definition, it pointed out 下馱 or Geta. The word came into exist because 下馱 splits someone's toes, "jjok + bal" literally means "pieced+feet/toes". And translating jjok+bal as 豬腳 is non-native Korean speakers guesswork, assuming that it should involve with dogs or pigs. --PeanutbutterjellyTaco（留言） 2012年6月28日 (四) 10:04 (UTC)

again, it has been adopted by Taiwanese media (see above link)... not my own guesswork--RiceRice（留言） 2012年6月28日 (四) 10:11 (UTC)

I'm pretty sure it's not your guesswork. But whether you like it or not, 豬腳 is simply wrong. The reason I keep insisting about this word (both in English and Chinese wiki) is that (1) I'm 100% certain about 下馱 explanation and (2) I'm sure translating jjok-bal to 豬腳 is a reproduction of rumors and Wikipedia isn't a place for spreading rumors. I even saw South Korean tabloid also claimed the same rumor, but be it may Taiwanese or Korean newspaper which made a such mistake, an error is an error. --PeanutbutterjellyTaco（留言） 2012年6月28日 (四) 10:24 (UTC)

Up to now, you are the only person insisting it to be a wrong translation. It's your words against the media. Personally, I am not convinced that you are correct.--RiceRice（留言） 2012年6月28日 (四) 11:04 (UTC)

Well, that's because I'm probably the only Korean language speaker in this discussion. My source here (and in English wiki) is dictionary definition, and it's not my original research or personal opinion. I could try my best to convince other Wikipedians, but if you're not open-minded it would be difficult to convince you. --PeanutbutterjellyTaco（留言） 2012年6月28日 (四) 11:45 (UTC)

In a sense, I'm glad you joined this discussion since it was dormant for a month and I don't know how to change the article without any understanding of Chinese language. I saw your page move from English wiki, since a bot changed the inter-wiki after your move. I am not sure whether you check the discussion page before you move the article. And also I don't know why you deleted your whole talk page, instead of archiving it.

Remember, Wikipedia isn't a democracy. Being the only person insisting a correction doesn't necessarily mean that I'm wrong. --PeanutbutterjellyTaco（留言） 2012年6月28日 (四) 11:52 (UTC)

：既然閣下是韓國人，那就好辦了，大家就不需靠英文那麼轉折，請問「쪽발이」這諺文，直譯中文是什麼？--RiceRice（留言） 2012年6月28日 (四) 12:56 (UTC)

I looked it up at Korean-Chinese dictionary, and the matching translation would be 小日本. naver Korean-Chinese dictionary. But 小日本 is a Chinese word, thus IMO writing in alphabet would be best to avoid confusion, i.e.) jjok-bari. In any case, just don't use 豬 or 豬腳: the word in itself does not have a meaning of 豬. Even the literal meaning of 足-bal doesn't have the meaning of 豬. --PeanutbutterjellyTaco（留言） 2012年6月28日 (四) 22:12 (UTC)

ref from a jap website, see#335[10]--RiceRice（留言） 2012年6月28日 (四) 13:57 (UTC)

Here is the same discussion at Japanese wiki: jp:ノート:チョッパリ#語源などの正確性の問題. 利用者:Alphanis explained exactly same thing in October 2010. --PeanutbutterjellyTaco（留言） 2012年6月28日 (四) 21:57 (UTC)

坊間見過有人將「쪽발이」音譯為「肘巴里」，似乎欠缺了「豬腳」的精髓。。--RiceRice（留言） 2012年6月29日 (五) 00:12 (UTC)

As long as we avoid using 豬腳, any translation is fine. Please understand that I'm not trying to whitewash the word, but rather I'm trying to fixing an very obvious error. 感謝! --PeanutbutterjellyTaco（留言） 2012年6月29日 (五) 00:21 (UTC)

從上面的討論可以看出，既然韓語的「Jjokbari」並不是指「豬腳」，目前的條目名稱就是帶有個人主觀意識的命名。為了使條目中性化，應該移回原作者使用的名稱「Jjokbari」。—Iokseng（留言） 2012年7月1日 (日) 01:20 (UTC)

Thank you for your comment,Iokseng! I support the move, and the title should be either "jjokbari" or "肘巴里" depending on Chinese Wiki's foreign language convention, which I'm not familiar with. And if I may point out one more thing, I think we'd better to use alphabet for "チョッパリ（Choppari)", "バンチョッパリ" and "バン" instead of Japanese kana. After all, it's a Korean vocabulary and neither Japanese nor English rendering is accurate. But we cannot assume every reader is familiar with Japanese Katakana (I think). Best, --PeanutbutterjellyTaco（留言） 2012年7月2日 (一) 09:13 (UTC)

• (－)反對- 移動至Jjokbari不妥：為什麼不移動至Tchokpari、Choppari、Jjog-Bal-i或Jjog-Ba-ri呢？我寧願直接把它移動至쪽발이也不願把它移動至Jjokbari。「Jjokbari」一詞明顯是英文，因為"쪽"一字是入聲，英文中無法區分入聲與清爆破音韻尾，才把它讀為JJOK，而在Jjok後接爆破音b時，k失去爆破，正好成了入聲。漢語中可沒有「k在b前失去爆破」的規矩，所以還是寫作Jjog-Bal-i（ISO轉寫）或者直接用쪽발이比較合適。(＋)支持移動至"肘巴里"或"兩瓣腳"。--58.83.252.55（留言） 2012年7月4日 (三) 13:41 (UTC)

其他朋友也同意移動到쪽발이嗎？-- by User:Alberth2 汪汪 @ 2012年7月10日 (二) 23:04 (UTC)

我覺得最好的名稱還是使用拉丁字母拼寫，畢竟除了朝鮮半島人以外，使用諺文書寫並不方便；但這跟之前的原創翻譯比較起來，還算可以接受。—Iokseng（留言） 2012年7月13日 (五) 13:16 (UTC)

建議改名：「Jjokbali」→「Jjokbari」

Jjokbali→Jjokbari：移回原作者命名，並且是最正確的拉丁字母轉寫的「Jjokbari」。--Iokseng（留言） 2013年6月15日 (六) 07:55 (UTC)

完成--Gakmo（留言） 2013年6月21日 (五) 19:37 (UTC)

新條目推薦討論

在候選頁的投票結果

• 哪個蔑稱源自日本人穿下馱的樣貌？

  肘巴里條目由Yumeto（討論 | 貢獻）提名，其作者為Yumeto（討論 | 貢獻），屬於「discrimination」類型，提名於2021年7月25日 05:43 (UTC)。

  • (＋)支持。—Jane 閱·論·簽— 2021年7月27日 (二) 04:14 (UTC)
  • (＋)支持：--ICOCAで行こか？/なんでやねん！ 2021年7月30日 (五) 15:39 (UTC)
  • (＋)支持，符合標準，感謝貢獻。天蓬大元帥-會客 閱讀機器翻譯放鬆一下 2021年7月31日 (六) 01:44 (UTC)
  • (＋)支持--銀の死神♠走馬燈劇場^{祝你在亂流下平安} 2021年7月31日 (六) 05:45 (UTC)