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--Wing 11:10 2004年6月18日 (UTC)
Revert of 中華民國
Hello Ianm2000uk,
I reverted your first change for several reasons. It is not because you added aka Taiwan ROC. This is not the matter. It is a convention in Projekt:Country, that at this position should stay the name of the country in its official language. As english is not an official language of ROC, so I don't see any point to put it at this position. For the second, you removed the links to 國家面積列表 and 國家人口列表. I don't see the point for this removal. Also this is a convention we use for all country articles. Third, you added the table at the end of the article. Also this is not necessary. At first there's already MediaWikis for this topic in the simplified version. You can see it there at the bottom of the article. It is far more elegant. Second it is not right to handle Hongkong and Macao as a country, because they are not, they are even not a countrylike territory. So, that was the three changes you made in your first change. Yes, I made the reverse with one click (though I did checked all your changes before I made that click), because I didn't see any point of your changes and I think it's ok if I don't make the reverse change manually as at last it would just be the same as the click. --Wing 13:50 2004年6月18日 (UTC)
Split?
Hello Ian,
thanks for your reply. I would take care that I would not use reverse so easily in the future. Thanks for the advice. I see it could be offending.
I followed the issue in the english mailinglist. I personally have no problem in reading an article in mixed simplified and traditional chinese. But I should surely not project my own experience into others. Indeed we are working on a programmatic solution for the problem, so that either an automatical synchronization of the both versions or an automatical conversion on the server would be made. Though the problem is not quite easy, we think it is manageable.
I personally don't live in China or in Taiwan and I am quite neutral to this issue. But I think it is not a good idea to separate the language, because as you can see now, the mainlanders and the taiwanese must manage to see that the articles are ballanced, so that the NPOV is aproved for both sides. Though it could be an illusion, I hope this is a good method to make the people know each other, see the point of the view of the other side and comprehend that the otherside have their reasons. I believe this worked quite well until now. But if we separate the language, I believe we would lose a lot of things. I would not like to see that each side ignore the oppinion of the other side and make them self believe that only that what they are told until now are the truth. If we separate the language, it would also be possible that the chinese government would feel far more easier to take over the simplified version and make it in their line.
So, I think there's many very good reason not to separate the language.
I confess that until we get the software solution at least running 80%, the situation now is very unsatisfied. So one of the most urgent thing to do here is to work on that software solution. --Wing 14:42 2004年6月18日 (UTC)
- we have discussed the possibility of spliting Chinese Wikipedia into two versions, but it turned out to be unpractical. the first reason for this maybe the policy of Wikipedia. Wikipedia is divided into several language versions by "language", just like there is no need for a "American English Wikipedia", a "British English Wikipedia", a "Canadian Wikipedia" etc, there is no need for a "Simplified Chinese Wikipedia" and a "Traditional Chinese Wikipedia". secondly, even though we are split in reality, we don't want to be split on Internet. Spliting Chinese Wikipedia will finally cause two incompletely and may be (probably be) complete different wikipedia, the drain out of the limited Wikipedians may not be a good idea for this already frail wikipedia. the most practical approach is to redesign the software so that it is adapted to this situation. and we are glad to see some programming elites are on their way solving this problem. please be patient. (P.S. I guess you may be interested in reading Wikipedia:繁簡體問題 :D )--Samuel (talk) 14:43 2004年6月18日 (UTC)
ROC=Taiwan?!
In Wikipedia, ROC includes Taiwan, Penghu, Kinmen, Matsu and other small islets. Taipei and Kaohsiung aren't included in Taiwan Province.試吃那人 15:28 2004年6月18日 (UTC)
我是臺灣網友（不是管理員）。關於你編輯的部分，你的用心我可以體會；在長時間編輯的成果後被其他人抹去，這種感覺是我一開始來這裏最大的挫折。隨着編輯次數的增多，使我逐漸瞭解這裏「中立性」的原則，關於你的疑問，我的立場如下：
1.中華民國不等於臺灣省。這句話對兩岸的讀者來說，都是不能接受的。對臺灣讀者而言，中華民國不是中華人民共和國的一省；對大陸讀者而言，中華民國等於臺灣省，有獨立的味道。因此你的稱呼很容易引起爭議。（例如曾經有讀者將中華民國簡稱為臺灣，好像就違反中立性）
2.臺灣行政區的編排。關於這點，台北市與高雄市是直轄市，並不隸屬於臺灣省。其次，由於中華民國憲法增修條文已經將「省」虛級化，因此到臺灣旅遊時，其實省的稱呼已經少用。因此前面的創作者才會將25個直轄市、縣市並列。當然，你若將北高兩市與臺閩兩省並列，我樂觀其成。
3.關於基本資料表格的內部連結，原來是使用臺灣的用詞，內部連接到簡體版的大陸用詞，你的用詞我不知道是否是香港的用語。但原則上條目的創建這裏有一定的優先順序，例如簡體字版以大陸用語為主，東南亞海外用語為輔。當然如果其他讀者認為你的用語更貼切，也許等一下就會改成你的用詞。
管理員的態度已經寬大，至少比我當初來此地要來的容忍許多。有些原則我心中不能接受，但我尊重這裏規則。因此我才會繼續留下來編輯，現在除非這些具有爭議的頁面會引起極大的筆戰，否則我很少原文貼回去。 試吃那人 16:49 2004年6月18日 (UTC)
使用繁體的人口
你忘了還有香港。 --Djyang 15:48 2004年6月18日 (UTC) - 啊，你是香港來的。何不在你的 "用戶頁面" 做個自介？對於簡體中文，與其說是不容易看懂，倒不如說是願不願意去看懂。我剛開始是持排斥態度，但是試着去接受後，其實很好看懂的。有ㄧ些字我還是看不懂，但是稍微前後文對照一下還是可以猜出是什麼字。至於簡體人口看繁體文字，如果你有注意看 talk page 裏頭的過去討論，他們是看得懂得。
在台灣，年輕一代接觸簡體中文的機會比以前多很多，新加坡則是國家推行中文字簡化運動，香港則已經是PRC的一部份。所以你所擔心的看不懂問題，是你自己的考量，還是大眾?
目前zh.wikipedia 已經被PRC封鎖，未來怎麼樣不曉得，但是過去幾年的大陸網友的"中立性"努力卻是不可忽視。
建議你多花些時間看一下zh.wikipedia.org(main page 有個繁體link)。 But it does raise a very good issue -- New members, especially 繁體人字使用人口, make take a long while to understand what is going on. --Djyang 16:23 2004年6月18日 (UTC)
--quote"我記得家人都看不懂那些簡體字.也許下一代的人都會看的懂簡體字吧"
呵呵呵呵，我也是覺得不好看，習慣問題吧，看習慣了就好多了。有個日本網站，有興趣你可以去看一下，用 google 查 日本文化物語 ，站長是中日混血，在台灣長大，她翻譯有 陰陽師。 --Djyang 17:49 2004年6月18日 (UTC)
about the table you made亞洲列表
- Personally, I love it. I thought about making it a Template, so it can be applied to other pages. --Djyang 16:39 2004年6月18日 (UTC)
- hehe, well, this is the thing. Before I do any changes, or make any new stuff, I check first and make sure they don't step on each other's toes. So, I'm still "observing". :)
-- This is how you make a template: hxxp://zh.wikipedia.org/wiki/Template:<name>
It's identical to creating a page -- the only difference is the "Template:" prefix. ---Djyang 22:59 2004年6月20日 (UTC)
- I like the method you use in re-sorting the Asian countries. It's more logical than the original one, since I don't use "漢語拼音" at all it's very hard for me to figure out the sequence of Chinese words in the old table. In the beginning I thought to suggest re-arranging them according to English alphabets of their original names, but right now I will give a vote to the zoning method! However, which naming system does everyone prefer to use for making the list in traditional Chinese? I use the naming mainly from Taiwan's 國立編譯館 since it's a more systematic source I know so far, however, sometimes they do using some stupid names if you understand their meanings in original languages. For example, I gave up the official translation "奧蘭葉斯塔" for the Aruban capital Oranjestad but use "橘城" instead. Because I know the importance of orange color for Dutch people and why did they name the city like this.--SElephant 14:51 2004年6月23日 (UTC)
Clarify
one thing i have to remind u is, we don't care about any "political sensitive" issues, we obey the NPOV. if you mean we have to split in order to please the PRC government or ROC government, i will strongly oppose that idea: it's explicitly going against NPOV, i would rather it's blocked by the PRC government than ruin the NPOV. the articles you mentioned ( Taiwan being a part of Japan in history, Tiananmen massacre, or the issue of Senkaku shoutou/Diaoyu islands dispute) of course will (most of them already have) have an entry seperately. and about the software, of course the interface will be changed into traditional/simplified chinese completely. once the sofeware is completed, u will not see a single simplified chinese character in the articles! (kidding) --Samuel (talk) 17:48 2004年6月18日 (UTC)
Localized labels
Good job on Sinicizing Image:JP-map.png! The thing about Japanese or Korean placenames is that there is absolutely no excuse in leaving them in English, since they both use 漢字 in proper names virtually always. 加油！ It looks very flawless. 天衣無針。 It must've been hard trying to remove the original labels from the islands and coasts and then replacing them again. 讚！ --Menchi (討論頁)Â 05:33 2004年6月21日 (UTC)
繁簡體問題
中文版未來將最終解決繁簡體問題，實現繁簡體的自動切換。因此現在最好不要講一個條目分成兩個版本。這是我的一點建議。否則，將來的工作量會很大--百無一用是書生 (Talk) 06:18 2004年6月21日 (UTC)
其實，繁簡體混排也可以呀。我的意思是沒有必要創建兩個版本，但是用簡體或者繁體都可以新建文章--百無一用是書生 (Talk) 06:59 2004年6月21日 (UTC)
Toponym
I replied at Image talk:Mongolia map.png. --Menchi (討論頁)Â 23:46 2004年6月22日 (UTC)
日韓地圖翻譯
辛苦了，弄得很漂亮，不知道你的電腦裏是否另外安裝黑體字？
地圖上的用語每個國家均會以自己的習慣語來命名，由於日韓存在有領土問題，因此對於地名的命名具有主權含意。
1.獨島或竹島。建議你兩者並列！因為這個島嶼目前為南韓所佔領，但日本也宣稱是其領土。（日本稱「竹島」，韓國稱「獨島」）
2.日本九州與南韓之間的海峽。在對馬島以西所謂的「西水道」，譯為朝鮮海峽；「東水道」譯為對馬海峽。這樣日韓皆平等，東水道與西水道可不用加入（華人罕用）。
3.朝鮮半島與日本列島之間的海域，國際上普遍通稱「日本海」，只有南北韓認為這是他們的「東海」，因此建議你譯為日本海。 試吃那人 01:31 2004年6月23日 (UTC)
Signature, please.........
I wrote the following on the Village Pump, chatroom, and my own discussion board. I hope you take a notice of it. Here is my gentle, gentle reminder... ^_^
- 在問題或答案之後簽名：打四個波浪號（ ~~~~ ）。
保存頁面之後，電腦會自動顯示出名字和時間。
We really should sign our name (and date), or it'd be really confusing for everybody else (except you) as to who said what and when. Especially if somebody wrote right underneath your comment, then it looks like that person wrote your stuff too if you don't sign yours to separate the 2. And here is my sig: --Menchi (討論頁)Â 04:34 2004年6月23日 (UTC)
中國國旗
Template:TwChinaTable加入的中華人民共和國國旗合適嗎？--百無一用是書生 (Talk) 15:16 2004年6月23日 (UTC)
蒙古地圖
你不是說早晚中國化嗎？雖然這是個趨勢，但是在語氣上有政治傾向。如果是我理解錯了，請原諒。不過還是改成比較詳細點好。--wulovery 09:05 2004年6月24日 (UTC)
- 你說的意思是不是翻譯成中文？不過你的表達錯誤，是將蒙古同化的意思。--wulovery 09:09 2004年6月24日 (UTC)
- 呵呵，你的意思表達不正確，應該是「翻譯」，而不是"漢字化"，建議你查查詞典。--218.9.114.80 11:55 2004年6月27日 (UTC)
- 翻譯啊? 哦... 說的也是. 漢字化不就同意思嗎 "change into chinese" 的意思. 隨便吧. "翻譯"... 我會記住的 [[User:Ianm2000uk|ianm2000uk (22男/英國)]] 02:16 2004年6月28日 (UTC)
- 你那是直譯，中國人都是說「翻譯成...」，也有說「漢化」的，不過那只是對外文軟件來說的，比如「把...軟件漢化」等。--wulovery 14:03 2004年6月28日 (UTC)
- 交個網友吧，互相幫助，我的聯繫方式請看我的資料。--wulovery 16:26 2004年6月30日 (UTC)
Wikitravel
關於美國州別的template
關於美國州別的template, 改成州縮寫排列好嗎? 已經做好sketch了,請來看看,如果可以就換了,謝謝! Template talk:United States--阿福 11:52 2004年12月20日 (UTC)